Profile of Vipper

Just to be clear, Stormjäger always talked about the „universal“ shell which would be way to strong. HVAP wasn’t part of the discussion, it would get clearly the highest reduction in RoF with vet and radio net but wouldn’t have any AI value at all.

“Universal shell” with radio net + full vetted (stacked):

E8: -1,76 seconds
76mm: -1,59 seconds
M4A3: -1,62 seconds

I said in my original post E8 gets the most out of it, while 76mm and M4A3 get out pretty even. Whats wrong about that? If you subtract 10% and then 20% (M4A3/E8) or 30% (for 76mm) that are the numbers I do get.

But the comparison was never between E8 and 76mm, this was just an example to show that longer reload can result in getting more reduction in absolute numbers with less reload reduction bonus. It was about the combo of Jackson+M4A3 versus multiple 76mm, since Stormjäger claimed they would be op with "universal" shells especially in combination with Calliope.


Never questioned that.

Are you number from in game tests or theoretical?

Bottom line remains that 76mm Sherman fire faster than other Shermans regardless how each unit gains in "absolute number".

Overall E8 is the best Sherman (if we leave aside dozer blade upgrade for M4A3). Its higher survivability (armor+hp) results in having the highest chance to get to vet3 actually and stay there.

You are entitled to your opinion but I doubt people will agree with you. On the other hand it is more expensive.

Shermans/E8 get +30% accuracy at vet2 which isn't as bad as you want to tell us. In addition I wish you good luck by stop move a "blob" of vet3 76mm which have a firerate about 3 seconds. Staggering movement with total micro control, sounds totally realistic if you ask me.

If you one is fighting vehicles HVAP is already more accurate than Sherman gun.

If you one fighting soft target accuracy does not mean a thing.

Bottom line is that currently 76mm can face PzIV on equal grounds.

i think this is kind of a groundhog day moment, but i still don't get why it should be a problem that a unit performs better with manual targeting? i mean the brummbär isn't even bad if left on auto attack exclusively, so the tiny bit of user input required to make it shoot where you want is rather the icing on the cake than a strict necessity (in most situations, i agree hitting moving targets at max range without leading your shots is rather difficult).
in any case, the brum is a unit that rewards getting micro'ed properly and i see nothing wrong with that. if you need an ai-tank that is able chase running infantry squads without much babysitting then maybe an ostwind is the unit for you.

The gap is simply to big.

Sent a conscript full frontally to throw a AT grenade in Brumbar in auto fire without out even using ourah and see what happen.

Actually there is little reason for the unit to have a projectile moving at 1/3 of the speeds of other projectiles (if I remember correctly), to me it is simply the same inconsistency with having Stuka rocket with zero penetration and high AOE penetration.

I wouldn't say they are far superior, because the 76mm gets no +30% accuracy bonus like the other Sherman variants. This is especially important while beeing on the move.

Not really.

USF vehicle already have only 25% penalty on the move and on top of that the 76mm has the option of the HAVP that have higher accuracy than the vanilla Sherman.

One can always stop when shooting to avoid moving penalties.

Collision hits than are quite often in sort range further reduce the importance of the accuracy bonus.

About radio net and vet reload bonus: The other Shermans with lower RoF profit more from radio net 10% less reload in numbers because they have a longer reload.

Not when the modifier is multiplied, the effect on TTk of faster ROF bonuses are the same.

Even if was true again 76mm would profit more due to HVAP.

76mm 30% reload vet bonus is pretty much the same reload reduction as 20% reload vet bonus at E8 in numbers. When adding radio net, the E8 has the highest reload reduction in seconds of all Shermans. The MA43 and the 76mm come out quite even if you combine the boni of vet and radio net.

Have you tested this in game? because the number do not add up.

Easy8 gets *80% reload at vet 3 and should have a ROF of 5.29 without radio net.
76mm get *70% at vet 2 and should have a ROF of 3.26 and 4.52 with HVAP without radio net so I do not see how Easy8 has higher ROF. (unless something is bugged)

Combined Arms: Onlx exists at Mechanized, which has the combination of 76mm and Combined arms right now too, and at Heavy Cavalary. But at Heavy Cavalary it affects all other tanks like Jackson, Pershing or M4A3 in the same way. It is a straight buff to all units. Since it isn't exclusively to 76mm I don't see the point here.

76mm has one of the fastest firing guns and with HVAP it has excellent penetration/accuracy.

Its fun of course but what is has to do with making the 76mm available nondoc?

I have little issues of making 76mm stock and M4A3 doctrinal, I have actually suggested that myself but no in its current state. The unit is simply extremely cost efficient.

Do you mean the Brummbar?
Iirc, Sanders already showed this gap does not exist.

Yes I mean Brumbar's performance gab between auto attack and manual shots. Even thou the unit uses the same stat in auto and manual shots, there is a big gap in performance.

Projectile speed which is lower than most weapons has do with it especially vs moving targets.

Well firstly, I'm not really sure its possible to make X unit fire slower if there is another one near it. It might be doable by creating some sort of invisible auras, but it sounds way complicated to begin with.

And secondly, ROF isnt the main thing making Jackson so good. Its accuracy on the move, speed, turret rotation, turret iself, range. Pretty much any aspect of Jackson (aside from armor) is making Jackson so powerfull compared to other TDs. I mean, if you litteraly wont make Jackson ROF x2 slower (so PIV will shoot 2 times, while jackson will shot 1) it wont change anything.

But even with such changes, ppl will just kite with jackson. It will make it harded to micro, but ultimatly wont change anything for a good players, just make it really frustrating to use for mediocre players.

Not really. M36 used to have more damage and lower ROF so can start by rolling back to those numbers if one want to.

It is an argument as long as the facts leading to the argument exist. Okay lets pretend it doesn't exist, so that you don't have to apologize for beeing rude without reason. Being a top30 player and having a greater range comes with the responsibility to be more of a paragon, but that are just my two cents as a lower ranked player.

So back to topic: I do think that Calliope + 76mm "blobs" will be countered by JPIV, STuG or Panther play, while Jackson doesn't get countered by them. So there is a downside to the AI value of the 76mm (if compared to M36).
So yeah to conclude, thats the thing about decision making, all choices come with a downside. But atm there is just no decison making at USF nondoc T4 tank roster. You need AI, go for M4A3, you need AT go for Jackson...



Both is not true.

Radio net isn't as potent as you said because it is bugged and gives the bonus only once. Yeah I do think a blob of vet1 76mm Shermans could be really strong if it would work correctly but that would be true for normal Shermans or E8s too.
Their shells aren't really more universal than the shells of a normal M4A3 as you said. Their shells are identically versus infantry and just have some penetration more. Same penetration at close distance, 10 penetration more at medium distance and 20 at long distance. At long, where the difference is the greatest, this is 66% penetration in comparison to 55% of M4A3 versus a regular Ostheer PZIV. Your shells will still bounce on a regulary basis. The biggest difference is that they shoot about 1,5 seconds faster of course. The shells itself are pretty similar, so either both are universal or none of them. If you want to go for high penetration you have to switch like the M4A3 switches for HE, but your main cannon loose its AI value by doing so and the switch takes roughly about 6 seconds if I remind correctly.
A 76mm is more expensive of course to make up for better RoF and slightly better penetration with standard shell.

76mm has vet bonuses that come from the T-34/76 and that are superior to other Shermans. At vet 3 the ROF of of the Sherman is 4.89 while of the 76mm Sherman 3.26! .

Add to that radio net and even "combined arm" for more fun.