So, build td, delete all tanks, a move infantry, win. I like your style
You all are putting words into my mouth and straw manning what I'm saying. When a tank dies in 4 AT hits, it means that a double AT gun deters it instantly because the risk is in say 4 seconds another barrage of AT is going to hit. Since it dies in 5 hits, double AT guns don't pose as much of a threat because of that. God help you if there's a decent amount of shot blockers because AT guns are even higher risks.
So if you REALLY wanted that brummbar dead, you'd need 3 AT guns worth of anti tank to PENETRATE twice. This assumes your opponent is an idiot because why would he do that? Brummbars are best when scouted ahead for because he will at some point attempt to snipe your AT guns with it. So really the only good counter is at least 2 tank destroyers. So the only time Jacksons would pose a threat is 2 of them with HVAP shells. With all the scouting ostheer gets you really do have to be dumb to lose it and on a suicide mission. Like, sending your brummbar to the same spot on the map out in an open field all the time kind of dumb.
Normally if a tank dies in more hits then that they aren't exactly lethal like a E8, Comet, Panther. Or, they come later in the game (Tiger, Pershing). |
Are you high bro. Every TD cost less than the Brum while also coming from a lower tech level.
It's more like a tank destroyer for both factions is just a deterrent not a guaranteed kill on said tank. It banks on the fact your opponent fucks up. If he doesn't fuck up, their tank won't die. |
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They come in incredibly early and are very good units, but if you see this (aka notice his lack of grens at the start, his PG bulletins) and you use any sort of early light vehicle it's gg. What's he gonna do? Spend 120 muni + 340 MP just for 2 shreks? Lack of faust is a big deal, ask brits. Converting them to Shrek squads defeats the point of why you went the build in the first place. Fight cheese with cheese I suppose.
I know way back in the day I experimented with Agrens. 2mgs, 1 pio 2 Agrens, Then into Pgrens. Two 222s were mandatory a long with littering the place with teller mines. Can it work? Yea it can but you rely on luck (mines) and you rely on not any of your 222's or you can't even face a Stuart equivalent. |
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Brummbar leads to wipes if you don't retreat after the first shot, and it wipes out it's counter if left alone (ATG guns). With high armor and health you have to be pretty dumb to ever lose the thing while it bleeds you the whole game.
If your opponent has to get a tank destroyer just to scare it off, then you're down fuel/MP while he vomits on you. Even if you had 2 TD's, they won't gib it since it can survive 5 shots. In the hands of a good player you will never kill the thing. As far as fixing it? I'd at least sooner it take 6 AT shots but has lower armor or high armor and 4 AT shots. The high armor mixed with 5 shots is a bit too much imo. Guess its the issue of having Soviets share balance with USF/UKF.
On the churchill, idk what to tell you if you let that slow thing slunk over to your AT gun. If you get a snare off that thing moves 1 mile per hour. Maybe I'm just used to having my AT guns plink every other shot as USF. Does feel good reliably penning on OKW/Ostheer though. |
I agree with the point that the 221...
The upgrade (unless this was changed somehow) adds a whopping + 10 sight...
The damage boost (30%) is only really ineffective against medium tanks....
That information about stuart killing/greater AOE is very informative. Though I feel like if you were going to kill a stuart you'd of done so because it was low and you were chasing. I can see instances where a stuart is caught out against a P4 and you want to kill it fast and thats when the HEAT shells would be good. I'd be ok with the ability not being universally useful if the other commander traits made up for it.
My issue is if you don't get a 221, then why bother going that commander? It's a deadslot and I always think commanders feel worse if something isn't an option, but a BAD option.
If a tank has a sight range of 35, and it gives 45 range that's still not that much. I think around 50+ is the sight range that turns out really good. Otherwise you can barely see an MG but not much else and if you want sight you're better off with units that have stealth/scout way better since you aren't putting the tank in danger.
Also I dare someone to try calling that tank commander arty on AT guns. Not only do you have to be somewhat pointblank, but it takes longer then normal artillery to land, takes a good 8 seconds. It's a weird argument that a basic LMG upgrade competes with what should be a highlight feature of a commander.
The Sturmtiger I think becomes an interesting unit at vet 1. The grenade launchers cause a constant threat and force enemy targets to move and I think that's where the ST shines. Forcing your opponent to constantly reposition in and out of cover. The issue is that the sturmtiger shot is inconsistent and just doesn't wipe or hit properly. Wheras the Avre is consistent and hits the target everytime and wipes. |
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I want to throw my hat in as someone who actually likes the theme of Elite Armor, but finds the commander to be a mess. (2v2+ perspective)
Ideally elite armor should encourage you to go Mechanized HQ because you get Heat rounds and you get Emergency Repairs, plus I mean it's called Elite Armor.
The issues with this commander are at the start. The 221 is probably the definition of busted and bloated.
221/223
A. As an Assault unit - Against soviets it's terrible, against a UKF that goes UC it's terrible, but if your opponent is USF/doesn't go UC it's busted as all hell when it comes out. OKW already has strong first engagement capabilities so then you add this onto the aftermath and it just becomes ridiculous because snares aren't unlocked or given to the allied factions (excluding soviets) for so long. It loses steam shortly after that but dumb bleed pressure against certain factions is dumb. Afterwards it loses any assault capabilities and becomes more of a support unit.
B. As a Support Unit - This thing is bloated and weird. If I want to go Mechanized going the 221 delays any sort of Luches play significantly and you can't afford to delay the Luches cuz you compete with a stuart or AEC. Big issue you suffer when going Mechanized is that you don't have medics. So the 221 comes with medkits, but the cost of the 221 and a med bunker isn't even all that much different (a 20 fuel difference) and you are going to build a med bunker anyway if you want LEIGS/a KT later. I like the scouting capabilities, but then that conflicts with the Tank Commander upgrade role.
Tank Commander
I don't understand the point of this upgrade. It gives a little more sight range (Not much) but you lose out on an important LMG upgrade. Then, you get what should be a good Artillery call in. Thing takes forever to land and doesn't drop as much as you'd hope.
HEAT Rounds
These are okayish? You'd want to use them on a P4 since the Pen on them aren't great at all or even a Puma. Thing is, the dmg boost is negligible against everything other then a heavy tank. So it just sort of feels underwhelming. The Jackson heat rounds are valuable because of its base high pen mixed with fighting extremely heavy armor. Plus I think it buffs the Jacksons accuracy?
Suggestions
On this commander despite spending munitions I find myself floating constantly because I don't have a call in to use, that's the role the Tank Commander SHOULD fill. I'd like the idea that he can use various munition call ins that are worthwhile, for starters his artillery call in needs to come down way faster. I'd like it if he just gets the P4 to gain veterancy faster, considering he's sacrificing an LMG. Then when it vets up fast he would be giving the P4 the increased sight range.
The 221 I'd like to be given the choice of early shock unit vs support unit. Against soviets being a shock unit is terrible, but being a support unit would be great. Something like costing 5-10 fuel but it doesn't have a main gun on it initially but has sight/medkits and facilitates getting a luchs/puma. If you wanted to use it as a shock, then once you have a converted headquarters you can upgrade it for some extra fuel to be a baby 222. That way if you go med HQ you can have a light vehicle and if you go Mechanized you can have medkits. Coming out at 3-4 minutes is just too insane even if it's squishy because you can just abuse it against certain factions and it's dumb.
Heat rounds, I'm not sure. It just doesn't feel like it's worth activating but I find myself loving the Jacksons Hvap rounds. Perhaps just increasing it's pen to 40% but no damage boost because if you go Luchs/puma you'd probably end up at most getting a P4. You'd have P4's contending with late game armor like Comets/Churchills so having more Pen is nice. The damage boost is utterly irrelevant at 208(160) dmg unless they didn't repair their tank to full prior.
Other then that emergency repairs is great, and the sturmtiger is getting somewhat fixed. |
Thread: RK 43 7 May 2021, 17:39 PM
Btw, just looking at the camo bonus of the Raketenwerfer:
Is there any scenario where the damage bonus of the first shot fired from camo is actually useful?
You deal 200 damage instead of 160. The only way this will ever have effect is two camouflaged Raks firing at a T70, but this is almost going to make a difference in a real game. Other scenarios? Double Rak on dozer Sherman? But by far and large, that's about it?
I think this could be changed to something more useful. +100% accuracy for a guaranteed first hit or so. I'm not saying the Rak really needs it, but those additional 40 damage seem fairly useless, even if you run around with two of them at all times.
If you look at it, a lot of "better rounds" end up being pretty negligible unless up against say super heavy tanks. OKW and Jackson Hvap rounds add 30% dmg and 30% pen, but that means the shot only does 200, which means it takes the same amount of shots for lights/meds. The pen is really what you pay for.
They all got nerfed because the ability to 2-3 shot a tank vs 3-4 shot it was too strong, so in this context it had the same idea but got the same nerf and probably just got forgotten. |
Sometimes I wonder how different factions from different game versions would fare against each other. For example, it'd be cool to be able to play UKF as when it was on its release against the most recent versions of OST and OKW just to see how all the balancing attempts have done over time.
Heck, I'd love to (re) play a 2on2 with only SOV/OST using the version of the game right before WFA came out just to see and remember how balance was back then.
CoH2 "classic", I'd play it. It's things like that that make you wonder. if every faction was released as it was and balance was never touched, would everything be balanced because everything is OP? |
I meant b4s/ml20.
Answer: same shit everyone else has to do
By that logic ML-20/Lefh are the problem because there only exists doctrine counters, or gross income sinks to counter them. Rocket artillery should counter them in a perfect world by say having a barrage with a long fire time but hits far range on the map. Then, the ML-20/LEfh should be reduced in cost just to be a constant harass unit one could build.
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How is an SPG more punishing? It's a 2 hit to kill mobile heavy arty piece vs a fixed emplacement. Fuel? Your get that survivability back in cost easy.
Also LEFH counters: IL-2 bombing run. USF Major recon + arty strike. Most arty call-ins, from 180mm to stuff like the concentrated fire with the big boom.
SPGs yes (you try to blow one up even with 2 LEFHs in FoW). They can focus fire down your emplacements at a time of their choosing, from a direction of their choosing. Done this dance on Hamburg well enough to know this all too well.
If I recall, the Lefh costs 400MP and 40-60 fuel correct? Comes in at 8 CP? So if it's against USF one of them is FORCED, not encouraged but forced to go a doctrine to deal with it? I feel like that's the biggest issue with USF/Brits in that since they don't have complete tools, having to go commanders to deal with casual things locks them out of options.
Furthermore If you used little fuel to force out a big purchase such as the priest, mission accomplished time to get tanks out faster then your opponent. Or as you say spend 250 USF munitions to counter it (Guess USF doesn't need bars or AT rounds). I'd like to see a 4v4 player actually buy some anti air to see if it could snipe the majors planes and others before revealing the Lefh.
I don't think this is a Lefh problem, I just think it's more of a damning decision to deprive Two allied factions of tools to deal with simple things. |
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