Brummbar performance

If I recall in beta Brummbar has already received an armour nerf and its barrage ability now costs munitions

It's more like a tank destroyer for both factions is just a deterrent not a guaranteed kill on said tank. It banks on the fact your opponent fucks up. If he doesn't fuck up, their tank won't die.

So you wan't to pay less money wait for less time and also be able to easily kill it. Really nice argument. I think you should make pak 40's one shot mediums then.

I agree to nerf ostheer t4 to the ground so people actually play t3 and win more games that way

It's more like a tank destroyer for both factions is just a deterrent not a guaranteed kill on said tank. It banks on the fact your opponent fucks up. If he doesn't fuck up, their tank won't die.

So, build td, delete all tanks, a move infantry, win. I like your style

So, build td, delete all tanks, a move infantry, win. I like your style

You all are putting words into my mouth and straw manning what I'm saying. When a tank dies in 4 AT hits, it means that a double AT gun deters it instantly because the risk is in say 4 seconds another barrage of AT is going to hit. Since it dies in 5 hits, double AT guns don't pose as much of a threat because of that. God help you if there's a decent amount of shot blockers because AT guns are even higher risks.

So if you REALLY wanted that brummbar dead, you'd need 3 AT guns worth of anti tank to PENETRATE twice. This assumes your opponent is an idiot because why would he do that? Brummbars are best when scouted ahead for because he will at some point attempt to snipe your AT guns with it. So really the only good counter is at least 2 tank destroyers. So the only time Jacksons would pose a threat is 2 of them with HVAP shells. With all the scouting ostheer gets you really do have to be dumb to lose it and on a suicide mission. Like, sending your brummbar to the same spot on the map out in an open field all the time kind of dumb.

Normally if a tank dies in more hits then that they aren't exactly lethal like a E8, Comet, Panther. Or, they come later in the game (Tiger, Pershing).

If a tank escapes with 20%of its health and needs to sit in base repairing it is STILL countered. If it's not on field generating value you have won a victory. You do not have to kill every enemy unit to win, just keep them away long enough to make gains.

If a tank escapes with 20%of its health and needs to sit in base repairing it is STILL countered. If it's not on field generating value you have won a victory. You do not have to kill every enemy unit to win, just keep them away long enough to make gains.

By making you invest so heavily in deterring it, that is called making value via popcap/resource spent. Or it striking at random points on the map, forcing infantry to fallback, is to make value.

I guess I wouldn't be against the argument of increasing it's range but decreasing its movement speed. If the thing has as much impact value against infantry as a heavy tank I don't think it's a bad idea to mirror one.

Brummbar need lower speed, as the other heavies have.
(KV8, KV2, KT, Tigers, IS2).

keep everything the same and give it one less shot in HP to take. Retain the firepower so its still a great shock unit but make it more risky to use. if you want to bump some resources down a bit fine, but really I think thats all it needs. Its not the power that is the issue, one shots are flying all around the battlefield at that point in time. its really the fucking beefiness with it that throws the balance off.

You can make every mistake in the book, with the exception of reverse your ass into two ATGs, and still get out with your brummy intact and probably like 8-10 kills in just two shots with good target selection.

keep everything the same and give it one less shot in HP to take. Retain the firepower so its still a great shock unit but make it more risky to use. if you want to bump some resources down a bit fine, but really I think thats all it needs. Its not the power that is the issue, one shots are flying all around the battlefield at that point in time. its really the fucking beefiness with it that throws the balance off.

You can make every mistake in the book, with the exception of reverse your ass into two ATGs, and still get out with your brummy intact and probably like 8-10 kills in just two shots with good target selection.

So it comes later than all TD's and just as much or more than TD's and should be even less easier to use than them???? Like wtf. The only thing this can counter is infantry and support it cant even deal with mediums.

So it comes later than all TD's and just as much or more than TD's and should be even less easier to use than them???? Like wtf. The only thing this can counter is infantry and support it cant even deal with mediums.

???

Bro relax. I don't think making the brummbar fit a glass cannon archtype better would mean it cant counter anything anymore. I went to great pains to say keep its offensive firepower so its an actual shock unit you have to respect. you just shouldnt be able to braindead dive the thing anywhere you want. As it stands, a brumbarr counters one of its hard counters, ATGs. I don't think it should buck the RPS method like that so much.

???

Bro relax. I don't think making the brummbar fit a glass cannon archtype better would mean it cant counter anything anymore. I went to great pains to say keep its offensive firepower so its an actual shock unit you have to respect. you just shouldnt be able to braindead dive the thing anywhere you want. As it stands, a brumbarr counters one of its hard counters, ATGs. I don't think it should buck the RPS method like that so much.

ATG are simply not a hard counter to Brumbar.

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ATG are simply not a hard counter to Brumbar.

I have zero motivation to enable your pedantic streak. An "anti tank" gun is a counter to "tanks". If you want to argue hard, soft, flimsy, flaccid, have at it general V.

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I have zero motivation to enable your pedantic streak. An "anti tank" gun is a counter to "tanks". If you want to argue hard, soft, flimsy, flaccid, have at it general V.

ATG are an infantry-based counter to vehicles. They're therefore very vulnerable to AI solutions, which is primarily also infantry borne, but it also means they are, by design, vulnerable to AI vehicles. The Brummbar is a vehicle that is solely geared around fighting infantry, which includes both AT infantry, and ATGs. It doesn't have vehicular-combat capability (Beyond the incidental. Mild micro from an opponent means that even an AEC can defeat a Brummbar quite handily), and it has very short range for a tank, coupled with the lack of a turret.

ATG are the "glass cannon" unit type, they're an extremely cost-efficient counter to vehicles due to the fact they don't cost fuel (And in most cases, don't require MU either), and that they outrange most vehicles.

Rocket Artillery beats ATGs as well, despite (in all cases but the LM) also being vehicle-based. It's really not quite as clear cut as "ATGs are the defined counter for all Vehicles (Or even "tanks" if you'd like to get really specific)", the fact they're called "Anti-tank" guns really shouldn't be part of the argument.


All of this is leading up to me saying that ATGs really aren't the hard counter to a Brummbar. Tank Destroyers are. This isnt to say that ATGs can't do quite well vs the Brummbar, though: If you have them apart (but supporting one another) the Brummbar is going to have a very unpleasant time, especially if you have any other sort of AT platform alongside, which could well simply be a medium tank.

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I have zero motivation to enable your pedantic streak. An "anti tank" gun is a counter to "tanks". If you want to argue hard, soft, flimsy, flaccid, have at it general V.

You seem to acknowledge that ATG are not hard counter to Brumbar and that your original post was wrong and that is fine by me.

again, keep going around and around about if an ATG is a """""""hard""""""" counter or not.

I'm just wondering why the white phosphorus shot was nerfed on the dozer sherman because it was too strong against its """""""hard counter"""""" the ATG. Whats good for the goose is never good for the gander with balance team lmao.

again, keep going around and around about if an ATG is a """""""hard""""""" counter or not.

I'm just wondering why the white phosphorus shot was nerfed on the dozer sherman because it was too strong against its """""""hard counter"""""" the ATG. Whats good for the goose is never good for the gander with balance team lmao.

Where were you when the 152 was picking off AT guns @ 70 range

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I have zero motivation to enable your pedantic streak. An "anti tank" gun is a counter to "tanks". If you want to argue hard, soft, flimsy, flaccid, have at it general V.

Here me out, AI tanks counter infantry, AT infantry counter tanks, so who should win a fight between them and why.

This question is important in the question of Brum vs ATG. Brums are supposed to counters Support weapons ATG's included.

again, keep going around and around about if an ATG is a """""""hard""""""" counter or not.

I'm just wondering why the white phosphorus shot was nerfed on the dozer sherman because it was too strong against its """""""hard counter"""""" the ATG.

Why does KV-8/Croc/hezter counters ATG since atg are its "hard counter" according to you?

The there is no patch change listed WP on dozer's WP so I am not sure why you claim it was not nerfed.

In addition the Dozer remain a main battle tank, WP is ability not auto-attack and comparing it with Brumbar is simply misleading (and rant)

Whats good for the goose is never good for the gander with balance team lmao.

another mod team conspiracy theory.

I'm just wondering why the white phosphorus shot was nerfed on the dozer sherman because it was too strong against its """""""hard counter"""""" the ATG. Whats good for the goose is never good for the gander with balance team lmao.

I mean, this would be meaningful if the Brummbar had an equivalent to the WP shell, but it doesnt, so I'm not sure why this is a "goose/gander" situation, really. When was the 105's WP shell changed, anyway? I can't say I recall.

Also: The 105 sherman was buffed in the Commander Patch to improve its performance vs ATGs through improving its "barrage" ability to 70 range, and providing it with an extra shell in said barrage. This implies to me that this type of unit is indeed intended to not be countered by ATGs.