Profile of Mr.Smith

to turn it around: The mg synergize with the higher durability on the okw panther and panzer4, because they can actually afford to stand still and shoot. this give the okw tank higher peak dps in situation where it can utilize both its mg and main gun at the same time.

the british tank can shoot and scoot, but they are not going to reach the same anti-infantry dps as the panzer4, or (maybe) even the panther.

I am not in a position to compare shoot & scoot AoE guns with accuracy-based attacks.

However, yes, it's true. The Panther also doubles as a super-durable vet3 LMG-gren squad in the AI department. Given the cost difference (especially in MP) between the Panther and dedicated tank destroyers, there is no way that the Panther is underperforming for the cost.

Personally I see no use for it. With the excellent tier 3 options and call-in Tiger doctrines, it doesn't fill any role that makes it desirable.

Basically, we can summarize that observation as:
- 1v1 revolves around the call-in meta; why pay more for less?
- The insane cost-efficiency of the Stug overshadows all other AT platforms available to OST

It would be nice if the first issue (call-in meta) would become addressed some day.
Regarding the cost-efficiency of the Stug, it's not the Panther that's underperforming (it's not). It's the awesomeness of the Stug that makes it seem bad.

Just like we shouldn't buff Brits to match the cost-efficiency of the Advanced Emplacement Regiment commander, we should not buff the Panther to match the cost-efficiency of the Stug.

(Please be aware that there exist other modes besides 1v1 in the game)

Aha it was already post by smith another video where unit are in cover guess who wiped the squad and guess who killed no one?
( now stop being bias and post the other video )

I've never uploaded any videos to youtube/etc in my life ever D: It must have been something else.

^
I'm sure if you make a search on post history you'll find the video, but it's pretty worthless to do so. It's simple:
-accuracy based AI will lose if you apply 0.5 accuracy/dmg modifiers and veterancy.
-AoE based AI will win againts clumped troops (cover).

Precisely.

The cons (in addition to everything Elchino posted):
- Vehicle-based MGs suffer from accuracy/burst penalties while moving (e.g., to chase). That's about -45% dps off when you are moving
- MG range = 35 (tank-gun range >= 40)
- (unless you are OKW, or the Universal Carrier) Vehicle-based MGs have a very steep drop-off like carbines and weapons like that; they are good at close range, not that good at long range

OST Panther DPS goes from ~33DPS at close range (up to 10) to ~10DPS at extreme-long range
OKW Panther DPS goes from ~28DPS at close range to ~15DPS at extreme-long range

(you almost never want to halt your panther at rifle-nade range)

The pros:
- If my DPS calculation is correct, the sum of all MGs on the Panther outdpses an entire vet3 grenadier squad (at their best range) when you drive it next to the enemy.

I'm trying to implement my own homebrewn dps calculator for squads.

elchino7
DPS being calculated as:" Damage x Accuracy x (Shots per burst x Shots fired before reload / Total time to shoot including reload)
Total time to shoot including reload = ((Shoot burst duration + Fire aim time + Wind up + Wind down)*Shots fire before reload) + (Cooldown duration * Reload frequency) + (Reload duration)"

ready_aim_time is the time before firing on a new target if I remember correctly...

Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise
Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required

Accuracy, penetration chance are capped at 1. Burst duration for non burst weapons is 0.125 (this game generally operates on 8 ticks a second, any amount of time is rounded to the closest 0.125). You will have to adjust rate of fire, burst duration, accuracy, cooldown and reload duration all with range. The one -cooldown is because there won't be a cooldown after the last burst before a reload.

Both formulas basically, say the same thing (Cruzz's formula is a spiffy spinoff that allows us to factor ready_aim_time into DPS). Let' refer to Cruzz formula terminology for now.

I have 3 clarification questions, and I would like to know if somebody could answer them for me:

1. If we look at Cruzz's formula, shouldn't "burst bullets" be equal to "1 + rof * burst"?

The idea is that the 1st bullet always fires immediately, whereas the rest of the bullets have a delay of 1/rof between them.

2. Does the duration of "burst duration" change depending on the actual number of bullets fired?

i.e., Suppose:
- Burst duration is equal to 5 secs
- 5 seconds is enough to fire 6 bullets. but not 7 bullets
- It actually takes 4.5 seconds to fire those 6 bullets

Now, my question is:
- Does the burst stop when the last bullet is fired (after 4.5 secs) -- so the wind-down starts earlier?
- Or does the burst use up the whole duration? (i.e., the gun remains idle for 0.5 seconds)

I know that my question seems like nitpicking; however I think I have discovered certain weapons that are very sensitive to this discretization effect (e.g., Vickers_k when the UC is moving).
- This is all weapons with lowish ROF during their small-ish bursts, and no randomization between rof and burst_duration
- their dps looks like a sawtooth

3. I have absolutely no idea how incremental accuracy works at all.

Any clues?

4. When I have both "multiplication" and "addition" veterancy modifiers that apply to the same stat.

Am I right to assume that I should first apply the multiplication modifiers, and then the addition modifiers?

To pro-Panther-buff people:
- The key to Panther viability (superiority even) lies with its vet (in particular Vet2 and Vet3)
- If you believe that the Panther merits any buff in its current iteration, you should consider pillaging its vet bonuses (Jackson-style)
- Straight Panther buffs is a no-go (a Vet3 Panther will curbstomb anything; even the more expensive units the allies can throw at it, 1v1)
- The fact that some late-game Panther counters got buffed doesn't mean that the Panther needs to be buffed immediately. These counters needed to be buffed because the Panther (and Panther-spam) was getting too strong as matches dragged on.
- Panther-spam will still remain a very viable tactic, despite the nerfbuffs.

To nay-Panther-buff people:
- The veterancy bonuses I mentioned take time to kick in.
- It takes time to start rolling out Panthers
- It also takes time to accumulate veterancy on the Panther, since it has weak AI (1v1 is infantry-spam mode)
- By the time the Panther attains its vet, the match is usually over. Thus, Panther vet (and the unit itself) has no bearing in 1v1.

The Pershing is anti everything. The Panther is anti tank.

The Panther also has anti-infantry. It might not be as strong as generalist tanks, but it's there. It is also the only crush-capable Axis tank.

Because you also can get unlimited Comets, T-34/85s and E8s, which share similar health with the Panther. I´d consider them an own class. Improved mediums. The Panther however costs way more while offering less utility. The Comet is in the same cost bracket, yet kills infantry easily and only loses by a small margin versus the Panther. The sheer dps of all "improved mediums" is lowest on the Panther due to the rate of fire.

T-34s and E8's have paper armour. They also don't get the insane Panther Vet2/Vet3 bonuses. For units that require flanking to succeed, they also have less speed than the Panther.

Regarding Comet vs Panther. As I have already shown to you, the Panther only wins by a small margin if the both the following conditions hold:
- Panther is at Vet0 AND
- you fight the Comet at max-range.

At Vet2 and above, the Comet has absolutely zero chance (maybe 10%, only at max range).

Assuming that we're only implementing this for penetration, you could simply have a weapon add an upgrade to the target every deflection that reduces armour by a percentage. You then simply have the weapon remove all accumulated upgrades on a successful hit (i.e., on damage). The upgrades would also expire when the target leaves combat. The AEC uses something similar for its Tread Shot.

Unfortunately, I don't think this would be worth implementing at this point. The current system is easier to grasp and Relic is unlikely to want to implement it.

That's probably the closest we can get to pRNG. However, I don't think that this implementation will have the desired effects:
- The buff needs to go on the attacker that missed (and needs to stay exclusive)

.. although the more I think of it, the proposed pRNG system will only really benefit prolongued 1v1 fights. If you have a swarm chasing down a wounder Tiger (penetration chance: 33%), it's even more likely that the wounded Tiger will escape with "bullshit RNG" than the current system that we have. That's because your "bad luck" vs that "darned low HP tank" cannot be cashed in by the other tanks in the swarm.

In dota2, you very likely have a very high rate of attack, thus you get to cash-off your RNG at the desired target. In CoH2 you have (relatively) slow-firing tanks, with 4-5 penetrating hits resulting in death.