panthers reload speed

Will change nothing...we dont want huge vet 2 and 3 bonuses as panther will rarely make it there.What is needed is bringing that reload bonus to vet 0.And it certainly doesnt need more useless penetration.Nice try at attempting to make it look more imposing on paper but useless in practice.

I didn't said i want to buff panther, 960 hp and 350 frontal armor is kind of bs. i didn't said panther need buffs at all.

Will change nothing...we dont want huge vet 2 and 3 bonuses as panther will rarely make it there.What is needed is bringing that reload bonus to vet 0.And it certainly doesnt need more useless penetration.Nice try at attempting to make it look more imposing on paper but useless in practice.

Provide a SINGLE stat based reason as to WHY panther should get any buff.
There is no tank in the game it would struggle against except for slugfest against IS-2.

Its a tank hunter, not tank destroyer, it doesn't win by sheer DPS, but by effortlessly out ranging and outlasting other classes while being virtually unflankable thanks to blitz and its own speed.

There is ONE tank in game the panther doesn't steamroll and you expect buffs? Come on ostherlitz, you can't be that delusional, can you?

Provide a SINGLE stat based reason as to WHY panther should get any buff.
There is no tank in the game it would struggle against except for slugfest against IS-2.

Its a tank hunter, not tank destroyer, it doesn't win by sheer DPS, but by effortlessly out ranging and outlasting other classes while being virtually unflankable thanks to blitz and its own speed.

There is ONE tank in game the panther doesn't steamroll and you expect buffs? Come on ostherlitz, you can't be that delusional, can you?

Panthers struggle against firefly for instance

Panthers struggle against firefly for instance

FF needs 40 seconds to down a panther, assuming all hits will pen, which rarely happens.

Panther needs 18 sec to kill FF, all hits will always pen.

Panther doesn't have trouble catching up to sluggish FF and brits can't snare it.

The only instance where you'd struggle against FF with a panther is if you confuse it with emplacement and never move it, so it can be targetted with tulips, which will be nerfed next patch, panther will still need 18 seconds to down FF and FF will need "only" 34 instead of 40, so even if you miss twice, you're still in advantage.

Provide a SINGLE stat based reason as to WHY panther should get any buff.
There is no tank in the game it would struggle against except for slugfest against IS-2.

Its a tank hunter, not tank destroyer, it doesn't win by sheer DPS, but by effortlessly out ranging and outlasting other classes while being virtually unflankable thanks to blitz and its own speed.

There is ONE tank in game the panther doesn't steamroll and you expect buffs? Come on ostherlitz, you can't be that delusional, can you?

I xpect buffs because the tank is redundant,when was the last time you see this tank in 1 vs 1 competitive as wehrmacht?You deny this?
Even in 2 vs 2 its very risky.
What it is- tank huntyer 'tank destroyer' these vague definitions you attribute to it are complete useless if the tank itself finds no use.It cant kill anything due to its dps and accuracy.2 stugs>>>>1 panther.

YOu calling me delusional hardcore allied fanboy katitof is the joke of the century.Didnt u try to defend advanced cancer?

Lets do one thing ..trade comet and panther stats.Since panther is so superior...allied players surely wont object.
Panther as of now cant kill any armour due to pathetic dps.And can be halted by a single AT gun and supporting snare guy.

And it certainly doesnt need more useless penetration..

until the allied actually brings out a is2.

Lets do one thing ..trade comet and panther stats.Since panther is so superior...allied players surely wont object.
Panther as of now cant kill any armour due to pathetic dps.And can be halted by a single AT gun and supporting snare guy.

sure. A panther would be very useful the next time the axis bring out a tiger or a king tiger.

For the amount of resources spent to get a panther i expect it to be better,but hell why would you ever get panther over another stug?Panther is in no way and object that causes allied players concern..nor do they ever attempt to activelt stop wehr player from getting panther.Actually they want wehr player to get panther,doing so ensures their loss.

most cannon suffer a 2x scatter penalty when they are moving. While the US sherman only suffer a 1.5 penalty, the comet, cromwell, and the firefly all still suffer the same 2x scatter penalty as the german panther or panzer4.

the british still need learn shoot and scoot if they want to maximize mobility and accuracy.

That's true. However, it is a lot easier to use the stop-and-shoot trick with tank-guns, rather than MGs:
- There is only one tank gun, and you pretty much know the reload-time by heart, since stop-and-shoot is essential for tank combat
- The longer range on tank-guns allows you to remain stationary a bit more, whereas going to MG range means you are within handheld AT range (and you need to keep moving).
- MG Bursts take some time to deliver (you can use a stop-and-shoot trick to avoid the burst-moving-accuracy penalty, but it is easier said than done)
- The 2-3 MGs on the Panther don't necessarily coordinate (which means stop-and-shoot trick won't help you much)

Meanwhile:
- OKW Panther gets 1.7 moving scatter penalty
- Easy8 has 0 scatter penalty. lelic

Lets do one thing ..trade comet and panther stats.Since panther is so superior...allied players surely wont object.
Panther as of now cant kill any armour due to pathetic dps.And can be halted by a single AT gun and supporting snare guy.

If you do that, Brits will just, simply, roflstomp everything with Comet & Crocodile; and I don't think there will be a counter to that.

until the allied actually brings out a is2.



sure. A panther would be very useful the next time the axis bring out a tiger or a king tiger.

You can deal with is2 with current penetration as is.
Nah..that would require getting closer..best way is sniping from 60 range with allied tank destroyers.Panther far more costly...shit dps.Shit accuracy.No need.

I xpect buffs because the tank is redundant,when was the last time you see this tank in 1 vs 1 competitive as wehrmacht?You deny this?
Even in 2 vs 2 its very risky.
What it is- tank huntyer 'tank destroyer' these vague definitions you attribute to it are complete useless if the tank itself finds no use.It cant kill anything due to its dps and accuracy.2 stugs>>>>1 panther.

YOu calling me delusional hardcore allied fanboy katitof is the joke of the century.Didnt u try to defend advanced cancer?

Thats not a stat based argument, thats whining.

Also, there are units that are not suitable for 1v1 games just like there are units not suitable for 4v4.
Tank destroyers can't fight infantry, panther most certainly can.
Tank destroyers rely on spotters and their long range, M10 being exception, but still being reliant on raw firepower more then anything, panther relies on its guaranteed penetration against everything except soviet heavies and its own durability. Its accuracy is not lower then any other turreted tank(FF being the only exception for obvious reason-obvious for most people as I doubt its clear for you) and any skilled player can count time between shots and press S for that half a second it takes to shoot.

The only reason why you don't see panther in every single 2v2 game that went over 20 minutes is because tiger or ele are meta choices, that does not mean panther is weak, you'll see it every single time when game is long enough and ost player didn't picked tiger doc. You should watch streams for that experience as you being stomped in 15 mins most certainly is not an indicator of meta or performance.

Also, no, I didn't defended "advanced cancer" as the butthurt axis fanboys call it.
I also opposed to T-70 HP buff yesterday(ohhh so allied fanboy! much bias!), for the contrast, there was not a single post about a single axis unit that would not call for further buffs on it, regardless of how insanely OP it was.

So you effectively admit its useless in 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2.Thanks for validating my point.

That you say its because of meta....well the meta evolves based on an understanding what works and what doesnt.and its a consensus amongst axis players panther doesnt.Thats why its not used.

I love how we spent 5 pages discussing a tank that nobody ever builds.

I love how we spent 5 pages discussing a tank that nobody ever builds.

Thats the reason behind the effort.Axis players want to see it be used.Allied fanboys like katitof desperately want it to remain extinct.

No, I effectively admit that you're useless in 1v1 and 2v2 for being unable to play without tiger and not being able to hold long enough to get it to the field.

It appears in every single game where panzerwerfer is used.

And no, meta dictates what is most efficient and easiest to use, that does not mean other units are useless, unless you firmly believe we should buff soviet snipers, guards and shocks, because they are not meta at the moment?

That's true. However, it is a lot easier to use the stop-and-shoot trick with tank-guns, rather than MGs:
- There is only one tank gun, and you pretty much know the reload-time by heart, since stop-and-shoot is essential for tank combat
- The longer range on tank-guns allows you to remain stationary a bit more, whereas going to MG range means you are within handheld AT range (and you need to keep moving).
- MG Bursts take some time to deliver (you can use a stop-and-shoot trick to avoid the burst-moving-accuracy penalty, but it is easier said than done)
- The 2-3 MGs on the Panther don't necessarily coordinate (which means stop-and-shoot trick won't help you much)

Meanwhile:
- OKW Panther gets 1.7 moving scatter penalty
- Easy8 has 0 scatter penalty. lelic

to turn it around: The mg synergize with the higher durability on the okw panther and panzer4, because they can actually afford to stand still and shoot. this give the okw tank higher peak dps in situation where it can utilize both its mg and main gun at the same time.

the british tank can shoot and scoot, but they are not going to reach the same anti-infantry dps as the panzer4, or (maybe) even the panther.

Thats the reason behind the effort.Axis players want to see it be used.Allied fanboys like katitof desperately want it to remain extinct.

Personally I see no use for it. With the excellent tier 3 options and call-in Tiger doctrines, it doesn't fill any role that makes it desirable.

No, I effectively admit that you're useless in 1v1 and 2v2 for being unable to play without tiger and not being able to hold long enough to get it to the field.

It appears in every single game where panzerwerfer is used.

And no, meta dictates what is most efficient and easiest to use, that does not mean other units are useless, unless you firmly believe we should buff soviet snipers, guards and shocks, because they are not meta at the moment?

Wrong.Tiger is not what it used to be.But its still better than panther.Axis players understand this.There are so many tourney games...they are not played by 'useless' players like me who cant hold the field.So arent they using panthers?

Meta dictates balance.And this is a balanace question.I'm sorry if u didnt comprehend that.

to turn it around: The mg synergize with the higher durability on the okw panther and panzer4, because they can actually afford to stand still and shoot. this give the okw tank higher peak dps in situation where it can utilize both its mg and main gun at the same time.

the british tank can shoot and scoot, but they are not going to reach the same anti-infantry dps as the panzer4, or (maybe) even the panther.

I am not in a position to compare shoot & scoot AoE guns with accuracy-based attacks.

However, yes, it's true. The Panther also doubles as a super-durable vet3 LMG-gren squad in the AI department. Given the cost difference (especially in MP) between the Panther and dedicated tank destroyers, there is no way that the Panther is underperforming for the cost.

Personally I see no use for it. With the excellent tier 3 options and call-in Tiger doctrines, it doesn't fill any role that makes it desirable.

Basically, we can summarize that observation as:
- 1v1 revolves around the call-in meta; why pay more for less?
- The insane cost-efficiency of the Stug overshadows all other AT platforms available to OST

It would be nice if the first issue (call-in meta) would become addressed some day.
Regarding the cost-efficiency of the Stug, it's not the Panther that's underperforming (it's not). It's the awesomeness of the Stug that makes it seem bad.

Just like we shouldn't buff Brits to match the cost-efficiency of the Advanced Emplacement Regiment commander, we should not buff the Panther to match the cost-efficiency of the Stug.

(Please be aware that there exist other modes besides 1v1 in the game)

Stug is the last crutch for most armour..and ur using it as an excuse for panther?