Pseudo rng

yescorrect i dont hate low health tanks escaping. what i hate is shooting ten times with a pak at such a tank and it driving away, while normally 3 shots would have been enough to kill ittrue
true. and? you have no point?!

one final time: this does

NOT

change the overall percentage of an action happening (note that stug having a lower hit percentage initally with pseudo rng). most often you would not notice the difference between pseudo RNG and real RNG. just look at the plot! see! its math! everything is there!

please, PLEASE, think 10 more minutes before your next post. and read the wiki article...

What I hate is you dont even name the Tank that is escaping, since the Tank is escaping I assume its long range, long range means less chance to hit and if it hits less chance to pen

Paks arnt meant to kill tanks theyre just meant to prevent you from getting rolled over by them but heres a thing, if that tank got itself snared in someway then pak can actually effienctly pursue it and kill it

Now if you wanted to kill a tank you would chase it with another tank preferably a TANK destroyer

If I keep a tank at long range do I deserve the lower incoming damage I am getting? I mean Im trading off firepower from my MGs on the tank and all the guns on the tank being less accurate so should every 1 in 3 shots from a AT gun hurt me

My point? While Pseudo RNG would be useful in some areas in the game as I said in my first post it would also stop players from taking risks or doing big plays WHY because players will know that after 3 shots he would penetrate that tank he doesnt have to move his unit closer or flank the tank aka TAKE NO RISKS

But lets look at what AT GUNS can do to manipulate RNG since you love talking about it

USF AP Rounds for the M1 57mm gives +50% penetration
Good for getting more penetrating hits in

Britsh 6 Pounder Rapid Maneuvers Gives +25% rotation, +25% speed, +25% acceleration/deceleration.
Allows you to quickly reposition or if you feel ballsy move in closer to a tank?

Pak 40 Target Weak-point gives +100% penetration, will stun enemy vehicle
SNARES a vehicle allowing you to get more hits in or flank it and kill it

So tell me if we were add Pseudo RNG how will it work
Lets take Pak 40 for example, should it hit and pen all vehicles after 3 hits? How will it work differently vs mediums and heavies?

Would distance and rear armour be a factor?

I mean relic is also working on RNG being a factor in the game, just in a way players that force players to take RISKS heres an example

"We felt the risk associated with flanking a Heavy Armored Vehicle was much too great because of the high rear armor. To help balance this risk vs reward we are reducing rear armor on all heavy armor across the board.

• Soviet IS-2 rear armor reduced from 205 to 140
  
• Wehrmacht Tiger & Tiger Ace rear armored reduced from 180 to 140
  
• Wehrmacht Elefant rear armor reduced from 150 to 110
  
• OKW Jagdtiger rear armor reduced from 150 to 110
  
• OKW King Tiger rear armor reduced from 225 to 150
  
• British Comet Tank rear armor reduced from 180 to 130"
  

Also many other fustrating RNG elements have been adjusted or removed entirely by Relic

But lets go to you a Professional Forum poster who thinks before he posts and puts 10 minutes into everypost

You say Pseudo RNG would be good

So convince me and other people who are against it

Tell me how the Pak 40 would work vs Cromwells, Shermans, Comets and Churchills

and I want multiple different factors you're a professional forum poster and an expert on what was it called again? Pseudo RNG so put in tank distances, are they getting shot in the rear and wether theyre moving or not

wrong. please read what i wrote above. it does not change the overall chance, flanking is still worth it, units in cover still get a bonus, etc, pp.

sorry, i may be a bit harsh, but both of you dont know what they are talking about. please read this:Link to Virus

It seems I spoke too soon.

However, I still don't believe we can simply copy-paste what was done in Dota2 for the following reasons:

1) It seems that Dota2 only applies pRNG (pseudo-RNG) for special types of attacks that have a fixed chance of happening irrespective of the target.

If Tiger had a 25% chance to stun on hit (let's ignore deflection and stuff), nobody would complain if we copy-pasted Dota2's pseudo-random distribution. But only for the stun aspect of the Tiger.

Pseudo-RNG could be interesting to examine for random-critical types of damage (e.g., Engine destroyed, etc); this is rather than completely removing these from the game.

2) (In CoH2) Penetration and hit-chance always depend on the target you are aiming at.

Let's say that you have 3 targets: a Stug (penetrated by anything), a Panther and a King Tiger.
- If you deflect on the King Tiger by how much does your penetration chance increase? (let's call it pRNG bias)
- Do you retain the pRNG bias also when you switch target to the Panther?
- What happens if you attack the Stug, and penetrate. Does this mean you lose the accumulated bonus?

The reason I am asking is that I am pretty sure that system can be gamed. However, I cannot game the system, if I don't know the particulars of the implementation.

Now, I am not saying that pRNG can't be done, or that it shouldn't be done. I am just saying that we need to refine how we bias pRNG with respect to point #2.

Thanks for the link, though! It was very informative.

because players will know that after 3 shots he would penetrate that tank he doesnt have to move his unit closer or flank the tank aka TAKE NO RISKS

that is just wrong. coming closer or flanking increases the overall chance of penetration. that doesnt change with pRNG

But lets go to you a Professional Forum poster who thinks before he posts and puts 10 minutes into everypost

well, i study physics and mathmatics. additinionally, i knew about pRNG before this post. i asked you to think 10 minutes, because your posts make you look stupid, which i think you are not.

It seems I spoke too soon.

However, I still don't believe we can simply copy-paste what was done in Dota2 for the following reasons:

1) It seems that Dota2 only applies pRNG (pseudo-RNG) for special types of attacks that have a fixed chance of happening irrespective of the target.

- If you deflect on the King Tiger by how much does your penetration chance increase? (let's call it pRNG bias)
- Do you retain the pRNG bias also when you switch target to the Panther?
- What happens if you attack the Stug, and penetrate. Does this mean you lose the accumulated bonus?

yes, very good point. i think that in the example you gave, you should retain the bias (but not the actual percentage of course). the KT would still be hard to penetrate, the stug relatively easy. the only way to "game" then would be to attack the KT multiple times (and bounce), then attack the new target and penetrate it with a higher percentage. but actually, attacking the other tank right from the beginning would make you do more damage, so gaming the system would not help.

that is just wrong. coming closer or flanking increases the overall chance of penetration.
that doesnt change with pRNGwell, i study physics and mathmatics. additinionally, i knew about pRNG before this post. i asked you to think 10 minutes, because your posts make you look stupid, which i think you are not.

Assuming Im stupid just because of my posts on CoH2.org on the subject of pRNG is in itself stupid, I could be a rocket scientist for all you know would it be right to assume Im stupid because of a few forum posts?

Now on the topic of pRNG all your argument is so far is how it works and that dota has it

Now I doubt pRNG would be put into the game because of 1 thread on the forum BUT if you could just give us examples of this in affect in CoH2 then you can convince people

Just get the Pak40

Vs Cromwell a Medium tank and Vs Churchill a Heavy (doing every single vehicle would take you too long)

How would this feature work
Distance, Rear, Moving are all important factors

Would it only affect accuracy, penetration or both?

What about Artillery such as Mortars how will it work with them

As I said multiple times earlier, pRNG could be useful feature in certain aspects of the game so Im not entirely ignorant to it, but there are many people here including me apparently, who dont have a clear understanding of it in your opinion as you pointed it out multiple times so give examples as to why it would work in COH2 as I requested in my last post

yes, very good point. i think that in the example you gave, you should retain the bias (but not the actual percentage of course). the KT would still be hard to penetrate, the stug relatively easy. the only way to "game" then would be to attack the KT multiple times (and bounce), then attack the new target and penetrate it with a higher percentage. but actually, attacking the other tank right from the beginning would make you do more damage, so gaming the system would not help.

I completely agree that if you absolutely want something dead, the best tactic will always remain just focus-fire everything you have on it.

I was thinking of gaming more in the sense of things what NOT to do, so that you don't shoot yourself on the foot; or more like the order that the defender presents their tanks, so that they have better survival chances against your guns.

Just to move the discussion forward a bit faster, I can think of 3 implementations for this system:

1) Your pRNG bias gets completely reset when you switch targets

- This awards tactics where you have a meatshield drawing the fire, before glass-cannons (that can still take a few hits before penetration) show up
- This also awards swarming, or RNG clusterfuck fights.

E.g., Comets vs Panthers at Vet0; On 1v1, Panthers have higher chances of winning even at that Vet-level. However, at max-range this is an RNG fight. However, if a Panther swarm keep focusing on one particular Comet, and the enemy player keeps kiting that Comet out of view, they might gain an advantage.

2) You retain pRNG bias as the number of shots you have bounced in a row so far (absolute value)

Let's say you have a King Tiger and a P4, and you want to assault a position covered by AT guns. If you present the KT first, wait for the paks to fire and then immediately present your P4, the following things will happen:
- Most of the pak shots will bounce.
- When the paks change target and focus on the P4, that one shot bounce will give them a significant chance of penetrating the P4.

In that sense, absolute number of shots made spearheading with KT a lot more dangerous for your P4.

3) You retain pRNG bias as the number of shots you have missed weighted by the probability of penetration

- In the case we described before, the KT will act as a good meatshield for the P4 (i.e., it won't make things significantly more dangerous than they already were).

On the other hand, if the attacker wants to maximize their damage output on the King Tiger, for each shot they fire, they can do the following;
- If you haven't bounced before, attack a P4, there is a high probability for a penetrating hit
- If you have bounced before on a P4, change target to the KT. Since the pRNG credit you have gained is significant, it is better you use that against the high-value target.

Personally, I think that system 1 will look the most intuitive (focus fire -> higher output). However, it will make clusterfuck fights too starcraft-y for my taste.

I have already explained how to game systems #2 and #3. Perhaps system #2 is the best out of the two, although it will diminish the importance of meatshield tanks.

As if that wasn't complicated enough, another constraint to consider is that certain misses will cause the projectile to scatter and hit a different target than the original one.

However, if you can think of a hybrid system, I would like to take a look at it.

Show Spoiler
Personally if a feature like this were to be implemented I would suggest increased accuracy after each miss that resets when a unit switches targets or after some time (10 seconds?)

Based on various ingame factors (distance, moving etc.) the percentage would be increased by different amounts

It would also not be allowed to work for Certain units vs specific targets example At weapons vs infantry

Show Spoiler

Personally if a feature like this were to be implemented I would suggest increased accuracy after each miss that resets when a unit switches targets or after some time (10 seconds?)

Based on various ingame factors (distance, moving etc.) the percentage would be increased by different amounts

It would also not be allowed to work for Certain units vs specific targets example At weapons vs infantry

It would be probably best not to game with accuracy for this sort of thing:
- AT guns/schrecks/etc are already super-accurate against most targets that matter anyway
- Missed shots can still hit; even the exact same targeted entity. This is due to scatter rolls.
- If we start messing up with scatter rolls too, then the system will nullify the effort of players that try to use vehicle cover (e.g., fences) to protect their tanks against enemy guns.

Personally, I think that system 1 will look the most intuitive (focus fire -> higher output). However, it will make clusterfuck fights too starcraft-y for my taste.

I have already explained how to game systems #2 and #3. Perhaps system #2 is the best out of the two, although it will diminish the importance of meatshield tanks.

However, if you can think of a hybrid system, I would like to take a look at it.

system 1 is indeed so sc2-like

i dont think that system 2 decreases the importance of meatshields. the paks overall damage output to the p4 will still be lower than if they shot at the p4 from the beginning.

system 3 is easy to exploit, i wouldnt do that.

now what i would propose is a mix between system 1 and 2, so if you change target, or wait, or the range changes, you lose a percentage of the "stacks" (100% would be system 1, 0% would be system 2)

Now I doubt pRNG would be put into the game because of 1 thread on the forum BUT if you could just give us examples of this in affect in CoH2 then you can convince people

its more a discussion for coh3 than for coh2
i gave an example already. and i assume you have not understood it because you post something like

Lets take Pak 40 for example, should it hit and pen all vehicles after 3 hits? How will it work differently vs mediums and heavies?

of course it shouldnt hit and pen everything after 3 hits and of course it will be different based on the armor. accuracy, penetration, everything still matters!!

It would be probably best not to game with accuracy for this sort of thing:
- AT guns/schrecks/etc are already super-accurate against most targets that matter anyway
- Missed shots can still hit; even the exact same targeted entity. This is due to scatter rolls.
- If we start messing up with scatter rolls too, then the system will nullify the effort of players that try to use vehicle cover (e.g., fences) to protect their tanks against enemy guns.

It'd be useful for units that miss alot though, they dont necessarily have to be for AT guns

But at the end of the day I still reckon pRNG isnt for CoH2

its more a discussion for coh3 than for coh2
i gave an example already. and i assume you have not understood it because you post something like

of course it shouldnt hit and pen everything after 3 hits and of course it will be different based on the armor. accuracy, penetration, everything still matters!!

Your example was a Stug getting a increased chance to hit a unit after each miss

I want to know this, how would it work vs different units I suggested you use the Pak 40 vs Cromwell & Churchill with different variables put in

You say it will be different based on Armour, Accuracy etc.

But I want numbers

and Relics game in production at the moment is DoW3, you could suggest it on the DoW forums if you would like

https://community.dawnofwar.com/categories/dow3

i dont think that system 2 decreases the importance of meatshields. the paks overall damage output to the p4 will still be lower than if they shot at the p4 from the beginning.

I also think that system 2 is the safest out of the 3 options I presented.

What I meant was that:
- In any case you would never ever spearhead an attack with a P4 (when you have the KT)
- However, spearheading with the KT will very likely make life for dangerous for the P4 than the current pure-RNG system that we have.

Another situation is when you have KT + JP4 (jp4 has adequate armour/high chance of deflect).

You are attacked by a swarm of T34's. The T34 guy will focus-fire on your KT (while the JP4 is still out of reach), ramp up deflects, and then proceed to cash the pRNG bias off at your JP4.

On the other hand, Churchill's low armour might actually become useful for once in its life; except for the fact that there are no squishy decent-armour units it can tank for.

Thus:
- Using meatshield will still be incredibly useful
- It will just be less useful than it currently is

Tell me how the Pak 40 would work vs Cromwells, Shermans, Comets and Churchills

To give a simple example:

Let's assume your PAK has a 50% chance to penetrate in a certain situation.

This means that if you shoot 4 times, on average you should penetrate twice. However, with the current RNG there is a 25% chance that you only will penetrate once, and about 6% that no shot will penetrate.

On the other hand you have a 25% chance that you penetrate 3 times and about 6% that you penetrate 4 times.

So, this taken together, you have only about 38% chance to actually penetrate twice but a 62% chance to penetrate more or less often.

With pRNG you retain the 50% chance to penetrate, so on average you still will penetrate twice, but by fudging the RNG the chance of that happening is increased. Like, the chances of actually penetrating twice when shooting 4 times might be 80%, with 8% of chance to either penetrate thrice or once and 1% chance to penetrate 4 times or not at all.

So, pRNG should not change the chances to penetrate (meaning it still will be favorable to flank a heavy to increase your chance to penetrate), but it should make it more unlikely to be very lucky or unlucky.

Show Spoiler
I know how it works Ive even seen it been suggested on the forums once before (I think last year), but would it be for CoH2?

In your example the AT gun is always hitting the tank it seems but say it has 50% chance in a situation with every miss increasing it by 10% to hit it, but then I miss 3 times this would give me an 80% chance to hit now

So when I hit it finally penetration comes into affect we can take your penetration examples and say the AT gun has a 50% chance to penetration but it fails this time

What would happen to my accuracy do I still retain the 80% or go back down to 50%?
What would happen if I miss again after the failed pen would I retain my increased pen?

Can I farm these "bonuses" by attacking other units I could attack infantry with an AT gun and it will always miss but my values will increase for the next unit I attack, Relic of course could make it so only attacking certain units would increase it

I know this is a change to make RNG be less of a factor to the outcomes of games in CoH2, but there is also the possibility of it being abused and thats what my worry is

You are attacked by a swarm of T34's. The T34 guy will focus-fire on your KT (while the JP4 is still out of reach), ramp up deflects, and then proceed to cash the pRNG bias off at your JP4.

Thus:
- Using meatshield will still be incredibly useful
- It will just be less useful than it currently is

well, my mix between system 1 and 2 would mean that that you couldnt ccash in all the bias. one might even add a maximum of stacks that can be brought over from another target

therefore using a meatshield would be as good as now essentially

Is it feasible? Is it any worth to implement?

My main issue is which I didnt make clear in my previous posts cause I like to read over them after I post I should change that

Anyways

How would the bonus work when
You are shooting a tank when you have 50% chance to penetrate
You dont penetrate and get a extra 10% (+20% of the origional value) chance to penetrate so now it would be a 50% + 10% chance to penetrate to a total of 60%

But CoH2 is a game with MANY variables

The tank repositioned to a location where your usual pentration chance would be 20%

Now what would happen to the bonus would it still be 10% to a total of 30% or would it be adjusted to the new penetration values and be 4% to a total of 24$?

Pardon my ignorance I did read the link posted earlier but that link didnt explain what happens when multiple variables are introduced and get changed

Reason why I asked for examples earlier that included different units in different situations

Penetration is already done well with the penetration value/armor value = chance to penetrate (or was it the other way around?)IMO. My take on this would be that OP only means accuracy. When used for vehicle/AT accuracies this wouldn't change much at all in the big scheme if done right, but it would tone down the stupid chains of missing shots sometimes (I'm looking at you pak40).

On the other hand though, these pseudo rng values have to be adjusted by the game for many dynamic situations. Entering and leaving cover constantly for example. The math around this is challenging and balancing the formulas is not something I want to trust relic with. It works for dota, but there is no accuracy system at all and the math involved there is rather trivial.

Just my 2 cents.

well, my mix between system 1 and 2 would mean that that you couldnt ccash in all the bias. one might even add a maximum of stacks that can be brought over from another target

therefore using a meatshield would be as good as now essentially

Apologies. I completely missed your mixed #1 & #2 suggestion. It actually looks pretty sweet!

Unforunately, I have no idea how to parametrise this, and I have no idea how to come up with a process to parametrise this either (naturally, we can't expect Relic to have the resources to come up with a way to do this by themselves, either)

Is it feasible? Is it any worth to implement?

Everything is possible! The only limit is ourselves: http://zombo.com/

.. or to be more precise, the only limit is Relic's eagerness to modify their engine to implement this.

I am the worst person to hold an opinion on this, but I don't think this is something that can be implemented in a mod, though.

Everything is possible! The only limit is ourselves: http://zombo.com/

.. or to be more precise, the only limit is Relic's eagerness to modify their engine to implement this.

I am the worst person to hold an opinion on this, but I don't think this is something that can be implemented in a mod, though.

Smith, Penals got sort of a similar mechanic at Vet 1

I guess if you could make it so that you get increased chance to hit, pen or whatever you choose, vs a certain target types, this bonus will work vs the particular target types and go away after successfully performing the said action vs the particular target types



Easier said than done and doing every unit will be a pain, I dont know if its possible my understanding of mod tools from my time messing with it could be very wrong

No, this is a terrible idea.

It may make sense in a MOBA because in a MOBA you only directly control one unit; it makes more sense to reward a player for committing to an action and to have it resolve in a fairly predictable amount of time.

But look at that chart above; this reduces the first shot probability from 25% to what seems to be about 9%. What this means is that you can drive a tank into a wall of 4 PAK's and the odds of taking even one hit are less than 1 in 2, never mind pen. If you then back out, or smoke, thus breaking contact, those PAK's aren't going to get the bonus for repeat shots at all. Tanks will be able to dive in and out of PAK walls all day.

The effect will be make big, tough units immensely more powerful. Again, this is no problem in a MOBA that concentrates player agency into a hero unit, but it makes no sense at all for a game like COH2.

Life is random. Suck it up.

CoH has its RNG and I like it as is.