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Someone forgot, that it is doctrinal tank... And comes in very late T4 soviet. For example, in same late Ost getting Panthers, which are 10 times better.
#T-34-85instock! |
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1. PTRS to...
1.1 Penals;
1.2 Cons (Better second, since Penals are hard AI, Cons will be light AT support);
2. PTRS Guards out, Leased M9s in.
3. ???
4. Balanced soviet infantry!!! |
Squad preservation is the most important rule in COH2 maybe not in 4v4 plebmode, but in 1v1 it is.
But... in 1v1 artillery is not that popular. And even in 2v2 reasonable people won't spend such huge MP count at howitzers. So - it's actually more problem for 3v3 and 4v4.
Of course, there are not only howitzers, but also rocket platforms. But I'm not also that sure, that in 1v1 a lot of people use them. Maybe they are popular here, I would trust to your sight.
In any case - I think, that arty should be reworked a bit. Rocket platroms should be... maybe less deadly, maybe something else. And static and mobile howitzers should be more effective. Cos right now Rockets are hardly overperforming and Howitzers (which cost more, which are doctrinal only) - underperforming.
Maybe... there should be mechanic, which prevents squads from dying under rocket barrages (and Wuhrframmen too). Not totally, cos it will look a bit wierd - if squad dies under rocket attack, it should be really bad luck. It will turn rocket platforms not into weapons of "mass massacre" (which they were in real, but... here it looks a bit OP), but weapons of "mass forcing opponent to retreat with serious MP damage, but without squad losses". It should only thin out squads, not wipe them from existance.
And Howitzers.... well, they still should wipe squads, since it's already very big luck, when such thing happens + I would add suppression around blast area for howitzers (bigger caliber - bigger radius) and small damagin effects to vechiles from right direct hits (like stun, or turret lock, or engine overheat).
I think, such changes would divide rocket and howitzer artillery in thier roles more effectively, would balance squad wipes a bit. Right now, nobody reasonable will prefer howitzer to rocket platform, cos howitzer is just less effective, and for vanilla factions - doctrinal, while rockets are not doctrinal.
P.S. About mortars - they are fine. Squad wipes by mortars are in 60-70% are really bad luck, when entire your squad prefered to stay close to each other and was punished for that. Or something like that. I wouldn't remove random from that game, cos otherwise - it becomes too boring. But... I would somehow relase in CoH 2 system/mechanic from CoH 1, when infantry models automaticly, without order just runned away from blast area (so fast, it would look like jump), and saved their lifes from that.
Such mechanic would really be helpful in that game in preventing squad wipes from rockets/mortars/howitzers. At least, in CoH 1 that was really helpful, cos right now if you don't move your squads yourself from blast area - they will stand under fire, like idiots. Powerful infantry AI was great achivement of CoH 1, don't understand, why they refuesed so easy from it in CoH 2... |
Artillery is fine. It costs a lot (600 MP in late is really sirius investment), it's very vunerable, it's very random...
And can somebody explain me - why squad wipes became such serious issue of last period. A lot of people write and whine about it but... it's fine. Squad dies - you always free to get new. Losing veterancy - go get it again. Deal with it, it's war! 
I just don't understand that message of OP, that "my well preserved vet 3 squads dying because of random arty - it's bad". And you want what? When squad gets vet 3 it should become unvunerable, just for to please your efforts of saving it?
Personally, I like that random, it adds realism, unpredictability and more "action" in game. Of course, it affects bad on people, who thinks, that "micro should rule over everything", but seriously - without random wipes, random other things, which may annoy you, game would be way more boring...
So - let's arty be at least same powerful, as it is. I would even say - let's buff it, because it's performance is too weak for doctrinal late and overpriced unit, which leaves you without other reliable late game options, like heavy tanks. (If I remember right, there are no doctrines, combining heavy tanks and arty). |
They have access to snipers and guards. I would argue that this combo is stronger than rifles with flames.
Since when Guards are able in T1?
Why people forgeting so easy, that Guards are doctrinal mid-period coming infantry..? |
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Plan:
1. Flamethrowers out;
2. PTRS pack in.
3. ???
4. Profit!!!
Suggest to initiate it immideatly! |
The issue isn't that they need some idiotic overhaul, it doesn't help with their main issue of RNG wipes. All they need is squad spacing improvements and the double LMG power creep to be fixed.
RNG wipes are part of game mechanic. Sometimes it happens - it's fine.
My idea was about adapting OST to new factions and make their infantry play more effective in late, not to prvent RNG wipes, which is not problem at all. |
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Since people think (again), that Im "biased", I will try to write about problem of Ost, which I see as important and give my suggestion how to deal with it:
Ostheer infantry. Unlike soviet infantry, which strongest side is survivability, which is compensated with low damage, ostheers always had decent damage dealing stats in exchange to low survivability of squads and high prices of them.
That's my own ideas, why Ostheer infantry became so problematic for last period:
It worked pretty good for long time, and from my point of view - problems started with UKF. UKF infantry combines strong survivability (low recived accuracy stat by default + 5th men in squads) and strong firepower (good accuracy + additional weapons). I don't really remember, that I would have problems with dealing with soviet infantry by ostheer, or US (which is more powerful, but that's design feature, everything is right). So, since UKF came - ostheer infantry started to be really underpowered. Not enough survivability by default and not enough firepower for to deal with new deadly infantry. + Here came new Penals, which became better in DD and saved their survivability - also problem for Ostheer infantry.
So, something should be done about them. Pretty popular became idea, to make 5th grenadeer, but I don't think, that it is good one. Instead, it would be more interesting and, I suppouse, more effective to rework infantry system of Ost fully, for to make it more "adapted" to new factions, units and meta in general.
And for that could be used... CoH 1 infantry system of Wehrmacht. Wehrmacht has a lot of common with Ostheer (just like USF and USSR), so, infantry system could be reworked in that way.
If I remember right, there were 3 (4) combat reliable infantry units: Volksgrenadeers (T1), Grenadeers (T2), Sturm squads (doctrinal) and Crossholders (T4). All of them were designed nice, each of them performed well at thier stages. Volks would be use in early, for rush and capture, but not for late, since they had low combat stats (even with MP40s), Grenadeers were powerful core, with nice firepower, weapon versality and good survivability (even with 4 men squad, they had a lot HP), and Croosholders - horror of late game, HMGs and snipers. Designed and performed just as it should be.
Now, how can we make it in CoH 2, my example:
T1 - Instead of grenadeers we put assgrens. Assgrens saving their super-grenade barrage, getting faust (like Volks from vCoH). They would be nice unit for early game. Sprint would help with map control, bigger squad would help with survivability and because of their low firepower - they would be used in late only like cheap meatshiels. Price - 230-250 MP. Because you know... 5 men.
Optional: For T1 could be used Osttrupens, but... I think Assgrens would be better for that. Would add some diversity in Ostheer stock infantry pool and make their early game more active and agressive.
T2 - Instead of PzGrenadeers we put grenadeers from T1. Giving to them 2 weapon slots, and 2 weapon upgrades - Schreck and MG-42. You will be able to get 2 Schrecks, 2 MG-42s or both but 1 of each. Like in vCoH. It should be same 4 men squad, but I think with lesser RA stat, maybe more HP for each model, for to make it decent core infantry for mid-late stages. Price - 260-280 MP.
T4 - Since Relic won't make new models for units, here can be used doctrinal EliteSturms or same PanzerGrens. They (elites) perform very well for late infantry, only would be good again - decrease a bit RA and maybe increase model HP. Same can be done with PzGrens, but they will also need to increase their damage dealing stats, like accuracy. I think, that Eltiesturms would be more reasonable to use here. They will be equiped with STGs at start, will have upgrade for IR-scoped STGs (they just making massacres with them) for 60 or 90 ammo. Price - 390-450 MP.
Slot of Elitesturms and Assgrens in doctrines may be changed with old PzGrens. For to make them "useful" and attractive - they will instantly when called have 2 PzSchrecks, will have fausts, and will be able to lay AT-mines. And rename them to "(Elite) PanzerJagers". Sounds pretty good for me. And for not to make them total copy of AT-partisans, they won't be able to be called out from buildings. Price - 340-360 MP, CP 3 (+-1).
What do you think about it? Im not fully sure about all those changes, but in general - looks fine for me and all of those would make Ostheer infantry great again (specially in late). |
Misscommissar is katitofs girlfriend on cob2.org. blinded by favoritism and bias yet never admits it
1. Maximum is fine. Yea it has 6 squad members, doesn't mean to start retreating when your down to 2. Doesn't work that way
2. A good player usually can tell when a nade is gonna be thrown. It's all about skill and instinct you have in the game
3. Maximum is still great. It's A SUPPORT WEAPON so use it as such. You can still use it as a mainline but it's not as effectiE before but it is STILL very effective.
4. Revoke misscommissar threat making previlages. It's annoying now.
I write about problems, which I see as really important (and that for me is entire soviet faction and some units of their) - Im biased, favoritism everywhere...
Seriously, if I would feel, that OKW is same bad as USSR now, or Ostheer or whoever else - I would be same "biased", but to another faction. I really see a lot of problems, I trying to write about them, explain them with argumnets. Not because I like SU, but because I see problems in them! And becuase here are a lot of people, who can write about axis problems instead of me, see no needance to copy their posts.
About your points:
1. Maximum is not fine. When you have less than 3 men in squad - you have to retreat or reinforce somehow. Otherwise - it will die on retreat with very high chanses.
2. Grenades are not problem at all. Times of "nuke-rifle grenades" are gone, and flamenade of OKW is not that dangerous, if target is not in building.
3. So, that's what I asking for. Make it really support weapon, like MG-42, Vikkers or other HMGs, which are support deffensive weapons, as HMG should be. Maxim (how people described me) is offensive HMG, which can also be used as standalone combat unit. That design sux, whenever you trying to use Maxims as defensive HMG - you have to suck or mirco it as hell, cos of small arc of fire. Maxim should have wide arc of fire, good AoE supression, long setup time and 4 men squad. That's how real support teams look and work, not like Maxim.
4. Yea, let's go on personalities again. Cos we have no other reasonable arguments about thread topic - we will say, that MissCommissar is bad = all her ideas are bad automaticly. That's not how it works, bro. |
Haha the bias is strong in you friend.
What bias? I only wanted to say, that all mortars in game may be so "unfairly deadly". All - soviet, USF, Ostheer...
Of course, USF mortar has bigger accuracy (or how it calls for indirects). But - it costs more, it has no vet abilities, like flareshot (cheap and effective recon) or counterbattery (cheap and effective way to make your mortar suck).
In general, I think, that USF mortar is fine. Again, I played against it as OKW, I had no problems with that, but I guess mostly because of LeIGs, which have better range so can counter that without risks.
And again - I still belive, that in T0 USF should have not mortars, but snipers. It would really solve a lot of problems, like "If I have in stock pretty effective mortar - what for I need doctrinal one with poor range, poor accuracy and for 40 fuel?".
Anyway, It's all offtop, so - we can discuss that in another thread. Or in PM of steam, if you want. |
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