Sometime ago USF also did not have a mortar which counters MGs. If the micro was too tough for one faction why shouldn't it be changed with the others?
Exchanging smoke for the AT snare on panzerfusilers would help give OKW more options to deal with MGs if they chose that doctrine.
Hah, good point. But there are differences between old USF and current OKW. Old USF had really only 1 (!) combat reliable unit in T0 without opions of insta getting more unit by building first tiers. Rears and Medtruck are not really combat units, so... USF had to use ONLY Riflemen for to deal with everything, that stands against them - from volks to HMGs and mortars in early. That's why they got second more or less combat reliable unit in T0. Yet I still think, that T0 USF sniper would be way better, than mortars, but that's another discussion.
OKW has 3 combat reliable units in T0 right now - CQC infantry, which are also engineers, long-range meatinfantry and T0 AT-gun. Kubel is not really combat reliable unit, I suppouse, it is scout and capture mostly. But it's still very painful to play against kubelspammers at start, cos single Kubel might be not dangerous but 2 or 3 of them can even wipe your squads!
So... I see reasons, why USF got mortar in T0, but see no reasons why OKW should have anti-HMG counter there. Giving smoke to OKW would be equial to giving stock Bazookas or PTRS for USSR infantry, actually. That is fixing of problems, which are not really problems. Weakness of OKW in early is design issue, OKW is late-game faction. Such type factions suck in early, get their power in mid and become almost unstoppable in late. Vice versa for USSR - powerful early, weaking mid and pretty poor late with only T-34-76 in T4 and TD-only SU85.
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I wrote you reasons, and all you said is "l2p". I was talking about hard-counter or MG avoiding tools like smoke nades, and you said what? T0 AT? Against maxim? kiddin me? and infantry? WHAT? Remove USF mortar and smoke nade, and lets check what could they do against 6 men MG squad. Fast capture car? great.. capture... thanks, i will remember these advices on my next match..
Don't you think, that it will be ridiculously OP to have faction, which have counters of ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING at very start of the game? That's what you suggest for OKW, actually.
Same USF maybe now is too good against HMGs with all that smoke, mortars and whatever else but... pretty vunerable to light vechicles at start, cos they have no AT guns until T3 and I pretty rarely see, that people getting zooks in early - don't have so much ammo for that... Same it is for UKF.
I think, it would be acceptable to change LeIG and Puphen positions. Make LeIG T0 (with very small price increasing maybe) and Puphen T1 unit. Then OKW will be less vunerable to HMGs but more vunerable to early light vechicles too, I agree on that exchange.
But again - if Maxim would be defensive and not offensive HMG = not spammable support unit, all problems would be solved. Cos... I don't see, that you mentioned in your posts, that OKW has problems with Vikkers, which is pretty defensive HMG and also not-spammable because of that. If I understand right, you have only problems with Maxims, right? Or Vikkers is also an issue, that's pretty important point. Will help me to understand, what suggestion would be better for that case.
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The problem is that the maxims crew will destroy the kubel, since u have to keep turning it to avoid the maxim gun fire.
Maxim crew are not equiped with PTRS, their damage will be random, and it won't be so high. + You may not even avoid from Maxim fire, since it doesn't have AP rounds or high penetration by default. Force it to turn, move on it your infantry - it will either retreat or be dead. And that's only 1 example of tactician genius, which could be used by OKW player against retarded USSR Maxim spammer. Again, keep in mind - Kubel is T0, Maxim is T2 with pretty long producing time (now). Keep in mind, that if your opponent makes >2 maxims it's... somthing about 700 MP invested in AI-ONLY unit, which will be easy countered by med-game OKW units, like same Luchs. Maximspam slows progression of your opponent, cos he will spend MP at 1-purpouse unit. He won't have enough MP for Cons, for AT guns, for whatever else... I think that is strange to think, that "Maxim spam is cheap imbatactic". It may be imba, but definitely not cheap and not uncounterable.
In any case, I think it is not bad, but even good, that OKW players have to think and use that tactician genius for to deal with USSR. Sometime ago USF had to use that genius for to deal with Ostheer HMGs and it was fine for everyone. Why if it was fine for USF to spend helluva micro and resourses on countering 1 unit, it can't be fine for OKW? #AxisHypocrisy? |
This was gold.
And what's wrong with that? Kubel may be used as counter for weapon crews, at least in early. I saw how people countered HMGs with that, worked fine. Of course requires some microing but... I don't think, that we want to make game TOO easy for OKW.
In any case, I said my point - I also think, that there is problem, but it is fully in Maxim broken by default design. That's not really about OKW. |
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Yea, we nerfed Maxim, nearly killed it, but it's still not enough for us.
I would say, that it is 100% L2P issue. It is not immortal, it's not that hard to outflank it, it's not that hard to counter it. Even for OKW, which now has in T0 enourmosly much combat units. T0 AT, T0 infantry of all kinds, T0 fast cap-car...
About your ideas:
1. Give OKW proper MG counter tools. OKW has enough units right now in all tiers for to deal with all kinds of enemy units. Kubel is proper HMG counter if you know how to use it. LeIG is fine enough, also. Maxim is not placed in T0, it comes not instantly and a lot of soviet players prefer now to get T1 with Penals instead of T2, and USSR has not enough resourses at start for to build both tiers (like USF in CoH 1 could do), so... OKW has everything they need for to deal with HMGs. All other problems in l2p. Giving them mortar will be ridiculous, such as smoke nades.
2. Change the maxim is good idea, but absolutely not in ways, which you suggest. I agree that 260 is really high price for not-T0 HMG, which is also designed originally to be spammed. Decreasing crew numbers should affect it's combat efficiency - it should get wider fireing arc then. And removce point capturing... why? Why not to remove it from ALL weapon teams in game, it sounds more reasonable, than removing that only from Maxim.
I said before and I say again - Maxim should be fully redesigned, Relic should refuse from idea of "offenisve HMG", which is 100% broken, and such threads proving that again and again. 4 men crew, wide arc of fire, good areal supression, slow setup/packup - that's what Maxim should have. Such redesign would solve ALL problems, which connected or based on that poor HMG. And only thing, which stops Relic from that is an idea of "Assymetrical design of faction". But it doesn't work like you want, that's sad, but it's truth. There were no problems with common design of HMGs in CoH 1, why would it be problem here? CoH 1 factions were even more assymetrically designed, yet similar designed HMG teams were fine in that and ruined nothing.
Make Maxim = MG-42 in general design and ALL problems will go away, seriously. And no need to make OKW more powerful, or Maxim more crippled. |
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From my experience I can say, that Axis really has better chanses to kill retreaters, than Allies. But... I think that's not only about accuracy, that's also about reciving accuracy stat.
It's way more difficult to retreat-kill same Tommies, than Cons or Riflemen, just because their RA stat is 0.80 - one of the lowest in game at start. But... Axis units also dying pretty often on retreat, but here rules God of random, I suppouse. It always rules with soviet accuracy in general, USF accuracy is pretty low, you should know, for to compensate their semi-auto M1s.
So my point is - that's not only Axis problem, that's common problem, and accuracy stat is not so relevant here, I think...
I would say, that in general, it's nearly impossible to play with sneaky tactics in CoH 2. You move your units in enemy backs, do some damage and then trying to retreat. In 50% cases AI prefers worst way to retreat, through all possible enemy defenses and units. As result - you got more damage to your army, than you just did by sneaky backstab. And even if AI prefers normal way to retreat - it's still very risky, cos again you have to retreat through front line of defenses.
But... that's not that easy to fix it. Make squads less vunerable to enemy fire in retreat (like in DoW 2 for example) - and it will be nearly impossible to retreat-kill anyone, so there will be no punish for "2late retreat" of your enemy. I think that's problem of game mechanic in general, it will be pretty hard to fix it somehow, so we have to live with that. |
YEAH PLEASE MORE USELESS REVAMPS
MORE MORE MORE
also more stupid ideas from misscommisar pls, i really dig them 
Why stupid? Adding MG-34 as stock unit to OKW wasn't stupid, but adding sniper in T0 is?
I don't see that as something bad, but of course - such changes should be tested. If such sniper unit will cost more, than usual snipers (like MG-42 in T0 costs more than... stop, thats... anyway) - I think, it won't be OP. Cos as any sniper unit - calling it slows your early game and progress, cos snipers costs a lot and producing very long + without decent micro you can lose it instantly.
And again, without mentioning obvious bugs - M1 mortar is FINE! |
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Or WC51 or Sniper in T0. Better sinper, cos we have already Kubel in OKW T0, we have Bren Carrier in UKF T0... Light vehicle in T0 is not something "uniqe", "assymetrical". T0 sniper would perfectly work as HMG counter instead of somehow OP mortar, and wouldn't look like another copypasting.
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To points:
1. Auto-fire range nerf is interesting idea. But... it will make it really similar with USF howie, which also has smaller range of autofire, than range of directed barrage. That's not that case, when copypasting is good idea, better copypaste HMGs.
2. Small AoE is result of that big range of autofire + early (than USF howie) income + it's cheaper, if I remember right. In any case, such small AoE is "balancing weakness" of that unit, not sure, that it should be changed. And let's not forget - unlike mortars, field small howitzers can also deal damage to tanks.
3. Yea, let's now add smoke rounds to OKW. Seriously, don't you see, that OKW turns in some kind of "OST but better" and do it pretty fast. First it was loss of "resourse starvation" issue, who knows what for, then they got stock HMG and doctrinal howitzer - now that. Let it have some other pluses and for those pluses, reasonable minuses. I really liked that old OKW with income penalty more, than that we have today. It was uniqe, had it's own interesting gameplay with powerful and weak sides. OKW don't need smoke, absolutely don't need. Such as they didn't need MG-34 in stock, such as they didn't need normal resourse income and all other wierd changes. |
I said a higher price, not a nerf.
being doctrinal and late game doesn't mean it can be under priced.
Higer price = nerf. Not directly, but still you make it weaker.
And being doctrinal and coming very late actually means that it can be underpriced. So, everything is fine.
P.S. T-34-85 is awesome tank, which costs 130 fuel, and KV-1 is piece of slow trash which costs 145 fuel. If something is wrong in soviet tank prices - it is that thing. |
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