Profile of general_gawain

It could be made to require an extra ad hoc Tier 4 side tech upgrade.
Actually I thought of this originally for the OKW Panzer 4 in Tier 3 for Ostheer, similar to how the Soviets can pay extra fuel to unlock 7 men at Tier 3.

I always thought T4 has to split in two parts, a first one that costs about 2/3 of the current T4 with T34/76 only, plus an additional upgrade which cost 1/3 of the current T4 and maybe 5-15 fuel more for unlocking the other tanks and Katjusha. The chance to get a T34/76 considerably earlier than a PZIV if you skip T70 should alone delay a possible KV-1 or KV-8 to a later moment. You are sacrifing early T70 and late KV-1/KV-8 powerspike for a medium T34/76 powerspike.

What? The general dynamic for an even game is that OH slightly pushes ahead when they get a T2 LV and then SU recovers when they get a T70 out. Then a PIV arrives and it equalises with whatever vehicle soviet decides to go for.

Exactly, pretty every game like that unless Soviet/Ostheer pushed the other one from the map.

It barely needs a few seconds. Unless you have a massive alpha strike there's no way you can fend it off with paks

I don't said fend it off with PAKs, I said it is unlikely that it will dive in fast and kill off a PAK in one fireburst. It is more realistic you will withdraw the PAK since KV-8 will get damaged too and has to withdraw by itself. The short range always comes at risk because of snares.

Ok? I'm not sayjng it's not counterable, i'm saying that the pressure it puts warrants an Ostheer Tier 4 timing equivalent. The closest comparison in terms of role is the Bruumbar, but the Brummbar is LESS durable, has no turret and is in Tier 4. And while the bruumbar is more capable of wipe potential (especially using attack ground) the KV-8 can deny the use of multiple paks way better with a little micro.
"Smoke the zis guns" hardly cuts it when you are dealing with a 960 hp unit using as counter 170 pen turretless cannon, even if you can buy time for 2 salvos (10 seconds) which is kind of overly optimistic. Your options are very limited.

As you said there are counters and yes a KV-8/ZiS combo puts a lot of pressure on Ostheer. To be honest it better has to put pressure on Ostheer because once Ostheer reaches T4 the ZIS/KV-8 combo will quickly turn into a dead end if you didn't manage to push your opponent back far enough.

Would the Brummbar be balanced if it came before Tier 4?

No, but it is quite a bit stronger, especially versus moving infantry. A single squad of PZGrens or Panzerfusiliers can deal quite a bit of damage to KV-8 with its double shrek if you keep moving it while reloading the Shreks. Stop between KV-8 fireburst to shoot. That is pretty impossible versus Brummbar or 105mm Dozer.

Sure, I get it, I just said that it should come later in 1vs1. I could easily argue that many units are completely unviable in 1vs1 because they were balanced to be less broken in resource inflated teamgames.

I understand your point. But how should it be done without changing Soviet tech? The only thing that would make sense and change something without screwing teamgame timing would be to give it even more AI damage but nerf AT performance by quite a bit. That way you could flank/kill ZIS with a PZIV (and maybe mortar smoke support) without having to worry about KV-8.

The upgrade is very strong, but the way it is designed is missing the mark.
Everyone puts it on the AEC. We could just make it an AEC upgrade and maybe add some flavor so that it thematically fits the AEC.

But if it is sold as "put it on any vehicle you like", it should also be viable on at least more than one unit.

It is not a huge issue, but the ability could be better. And since this is possibly one of the last commander overhauls we get, I wanted to leave a comment on that.

Since it is such a huge debuff in RoF it will be alwas put on cheapest possible vehicle. Before AEC it was the UC until that one got kicked out as a target for command vehicle ability.

If the debuff would be somehow less punishing for more expensive tanks, maybe people would use it on other vehicles too. Maybe command vehicle debuff should be in dependence of target vehicle?

That speed and range meams nothing whem Zis that have 60 range are carried with it are present.
If you invest 180 fuel in Stugs instead of taking a Panther for 185 you need 3 salvos of penetrating hits to (ideally) destroy it, which means that a Soviet player using it has a lot of room for using it while being able to hardcounter your turretless tanks with zis.
There's no way to dictate the engagements with a 50 range td. Especially in a VP battle when the kv8 can quickly dive, decrew or force any pak to move and potentially have to heal and roll back with more than a few shots away from any consequence.
Tier 4 is a much more viable option and I just don't see a good reason for KV-8 to arrive so soon. It's a great attrition tool and its timing should reflect it

I just imagined a 30 range 5 speed tank "quickly" diving in to decrew a pak. The words and the images just don't fit.

If he has double ZIS and KV-8 you should have something in addition to your StuGs too. Maybe some indirect fire support to decrew ZIS, force it away or smoke it? You are constructing vacuum situations without taking into account that Ostheer has combined arms too.

Just tell me where you want to put KV-8 in soviet tech. Don't say locked by CPs since that will absolutely ruin the timing of the unit in 3vs3/4vs4. This game isn't only about 1vs1.

That's a curious statement

In a vacuum
The SU-76M has a 10 range advantage over a Panther
The KV-8 has a 10 range disadvantage over the Stug
The SU-76M has 0.65% chances to penetrate a Panther at mid range
The KV-8 45mm has 0.6% chances to penetrate a Stug at mid range

In a real match
The KV-8 deters every single counter to itself while the soviet player uses a double 60 range zis to deter every stug, which, being a turretless tank, won't be able to move outside of firecones while shooting

First your numbers are way off. Since you corrected me, I'll do you this favor too. I do think you want to say 60% instead of 0.6% and 65% instead of 0.65%.

You just cant't compare SU-76 versus Panther with StuG versus KV-8, since Panther has the speed advantage and thus dictates the fight while at StuG versus KV-8 the StuG is the faster one and dictates the fight. This is true for accleration too not only top speed.