Sherman 76mm is not balanced against T-34/85 because it not fighting T-34/85 it is fighting PzIV.
Even if it balanced against T-34/85 it would mean that T-34/85 needs slight nerf because it one of the most cost efficient main battle tanks.
Sherman 76mm has to fight exactly the same targets as T-34/85, so of course you have to directly choose between going for one or the other. So you should compare AI and AT values as well as survivability. Anything else makes no sense.
T34/85 needs no nerf it is surely cost efficient but not op. In the end it has to fight Panthers too. It is just about right, a good brawler tank. |
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I really do like about 90% of the soviet changes, many of them bringing diversity and new gameplay options. There was a lot of work put into that will be great fun to play. Thanks for that!
One thing I want to remark about the last patch: I do think that the 0,75 seconds reload nerf on 76mm Sherman hits Lend Lease too hard, since the Sherman is the main selling point. There was so much work put into this Doctrine that I like to see it work out. But 76mm has to compete directly with T34/85 commander choices and after this last nerf I do think T34/85 comes out on top always.
T34/85 versus standard shells of 76mm Sherman with upgraded 50.cal:
T34/85 has slightly better frontal AI vs infantry with target size 1 already and way better AI vs infantry with lower target size or versus infantry that are not in front of all the MGs. The reason for that is the way better AOE of the main gun. Especially in late game T34/85 is a bigger thread to vetted infantry.
T34/85 standard shell has better penetration
With 800 hp T34/85 can take one hit more (which is often the difference between survival and destruction) and has slightly less target size
Yeah, I do know it is 5 fuel and 2 population more (and 60 MU less), but that should be always worth it. I don’t think the 6 seconds shell switch, smoke pods or 25% better moving acc make up for the raw allround power and survivability of T34/85. Choosing 76mm was always about highspeed RoF. Now it gets “standardized” without a compensation at AoE for example.
Keep in mind both 76mm doctrines (AEF and Soviet) come without doctrinal indirect fire or offmap, so their power is centered mainly around the 76mm.
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thanks a lot!
with respect to the main gun AI, you'd probably be surprised that the Comet's gun is pretty much on par with that of other generalist mediums, if not even better. it has lower scatter and deals quite a bit more AoE damage per shot than, for example, the Pz.IV-H's 75 mm cannon (even after the last patch), although the OHK radius is a bit smaller. so it kills a bit less on average with the first shot, but overtakes the main gun of the Pz.IV after a couple more shots fired, in particular vs clumped squads.
the reason why the Pz.IV seems to perform better overall is that it has more MG DPS, but that advantage shrinks quickly against targets with low received acc. only vs squads in heavy cover the Comet is strictly inferior, since there the AoE(n) distance and damage of 0 and 120, respectively, make it take ages to kill anything in comparison with other mediums.
I looked into the stats by myself and yeah you are right about that. Comet deals more damage in its outer AOE while having a smaller 80 damage kill distance. Thus resulting in Comets main gun beeing better in the long run especially vs blobs in the open, PZIV/T34 beeing better versus small units, especially if they are clumped in cover. I do think part of the perception of PZIV/T34 beeing better at AI as a Comet is generated by the higher chance of PZIV/T34 wiping a high health squad (if soldiers get close to each other). We all experienced that multiple times, since there are always situations were soldiers move too close to each other. Loosing a squad completely feels more punishing.
therefore i'm not sure if more main gun AI would be a good choice for the Comet, as that might make it too efficient at wiping squads in the late game. a slight buff to its MGs would be better imho, although i'd refrain from increasing accuracy and buff damage per bullet instead. otherwise the Comet would easily be able to mow down low-HP models weakened by WP shell damage with impunity.
After reading your statements I have to admit I do think this seems reasonable to me. A small AOE buff could get quickly out of hand, while a small MG buff is controllable. Maybe the best way to go. That way Comet would retain higher AI than Panther in all frontal combat situations. This should be true for a Vet0 Comet without WP too. |
I have to admit that I was a bit puzzled by these vids as well, so I've done a bit of number crunching myself.
Though I wasn't able to recreate the conditions in the first test to 100% (not sure what the exact engagement range was and the formation used in the simulation is slightly different), I think the theoretical results displayed in the graphs below should be quite comparable to what's been shown in the tests.
In the simulated engagement (the graphs show the average over 1,000 repetitions @ 35 m range) against the squad with no bonus to target size (TS = 1.0) the Panther and Comet are quite close with respect to damage dealt (left) and models killed (right) over time, though the Comet has a slight edge despite lower MG DPS (assuming all MGs firing at the target at all time the Panther w/ pintle has 40-60% more combined machine gun DPS at all ranges). However, the Panther relies almost to 100% on its MGs to deal damage, whereas only 60% of the Comet's DPS is dealt by the hull/coax.
Hence, when moving to a more realistic test scenario, i.e. against infantry with a target size of 0.5 (corresponding to mid to late game due to light cover or vet bonus to received accuracy) the Panther's AI falls short behind that of the Comet by quite a lot. In fact, it would take the Panther 34% longer on average to kill the whole squad under these circumstances.
The difference in raw AI may not sound like a lot, especially when compared to other generalist mediums and premium meds, but the Comet's WP shell and crew grenade more than make up for this in my opinion. These would make a huge difference in the AT-gun fight shown in the 2nd video as well, not to mention that in this clip the Panther got extremely lucky.
Wow that is quite a bit of work you put into there. It is a lot more visual that way. Thanks for doing that!
I personally wouldn't nerf the AI of Panther put I do think Comet could get a small AI buff that is not depended on the use of WP or grenade which cost munition and micro each time you use it. Obviously this gets worse in bigger games with multiple units where the AI value of Comet is bound to your micro skills in the outcome. Something like a MG upgrade for munition (you pay only once of course) or a small AOE buff that brings it main gun AI performance closer to PZIV/T34 for example. This would reflect the 18 population a lot better.
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Armor Company
- interesting change for 105mm, good work in making it valuable and unique in comparison to M4A3
- 240mm finally a good change for such an expensive ability (anything that hinders howitzer spam is good)
Airborne Company
- good news about standardizing Paras
Recon Company
- good news about standardizing Paras
- sadly still no separate Reserve Para Call-in or buildable option
- lowering trash canister shot ability and 50.cal upgrade in munition cost won't make a unit valuable which is to weak for its timing, please give Greyhound some love (-> tech + recon)
Rifle Company
- E8: 10 fuel for the changes still feel like a nerf, revert please
- Tank Commander: Tested it in cheatmod. The tank Commander feels weird, because it buffs the E8 in AT compartement while lowering its performance versus infantry (in comparison to 50.cal). E8 doesn't need more AT at the cost of AI, that way it will only get closer to M36 and it really just can't compete with M36. If anything E8 needs either more AI without loosing AT or a skill shot.
Mechanized Company
Sadly it got wrecked completely. According to coh2.stats it has the lowest loadout picking quote in 2vs2/3vs3 and 4vs4 in live version. Only in 1vs1 it managed somehow to get a third place.
1. Dozer blade was removed, that alone will drop its loadout picking quote in 1vs1 drastically.
2. Combined arms got a huge nerf by cutting vehicle reload bonus in halves and completely removing vehicle sight bonus
3. 76mm regular shell reload got nerfed by 0,75 seconds
I just don't get it. It already had it problems because of no doctrinal indirect fire options, its only strength was playing with high RoF 76mm Sherman in combination with Dozer Sherman. 76mm RoF was nerfed twice (directly and at combined arms), Dozer removed completely. Does anybody in the mod team hates this Company? What is the point of playing this Company ever again? Having a WC-51 that can repair for 25mun? Imo Mechanized is basically out of the game now.
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Except Panther MGs are more affected by both veterancy received accuracy bonuses of infantry and cover. And this is on top of the Comet able to deliver sudden burst damage and move in and out to get shells in on infantry. Panthers need to be facing the target with all their guns.
Its not that the Comet main gun would perform like a PZIV or T34 versus infantry... Why not giving the Comet a way to increase its MG damage too (would get affected by inf vet too)? The Panther should deal more AI damage than Comet in absolutely NO combat situation, since that was always the reason for me Comet looses badly to Panther. |
What you are saying is like below.
Why not just remove HMG from Panther, to make it work as a other TD. Other TD (Jackson/Firefly/su-85) clearly lacks any AI & high armor. It's not fair for panther to have all.
How can it wipe 6 pounder & airborne faster than Comet right? No fair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIxjdDb0CjE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg0u1IAuKeQ
As I read this I thought never, ever is this true. This really can't be true. It would destroy what I thought this two tanks are balanced around completely. Both are at 18 population. so they have to be somehow compareable in population efficience.
Panther: more range, overall better survivability, higher penetration -> wins vs Comet in 1vs1 situation
Comet: does way more damage to Infantry to be more like an allround premium brawler
I tested it multiple times in CheatMod at different ranges. Vet0 Panther always with Pintle upgrade, Vet0 Comet with Tank Commander Upgrade.
Result: The result was pretty close with Panther having the edge over Comet overall at killing infantry
How is this even possible? Where is the way better AI of Comet?
Throwing grenades? -> situatuional/very short ranged/watch out for snares
Smoke shell? -> versatile, but prevents your maingun from shooting of course
WP shell at Vet1? -> is it all about this munition costing ability?
Oh man, Comet really should have higher AI base damage as a pintled Panther or be able to upgrade a turret mounted MG by itself, this is shocking.
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TBH, we all have PTSD from release UKF, post nerfs UKF etc. It is weak nowadays and I'll take it over any previous iterations of UKF.
Remembers the 16 damage infantry sections and starts shaking
I really feel for you, I myself played 90% axis at that time since you had to wait 30min for a game if you wanted to play allied. So I know how we suffered at 3vs3/4vs4 by getting steamrolled by 3-4 Churchills or shelled to death by 100 range autofiring mortars which got 100% repair rate (Royal Engineer repair ability) while beeing on brace.
But it isn't the right way to ignore your PTDS by patching those problems away. You have to overlay your bad experiences with brand new experiences in fair matchups. Sadly versus UKF this isn't possible atm. |
Hmm that kinda surprised me
Why are you suprised?
Soviet is the best allied around faction for 3vs3/4vs4, with the right doctrine choice you have nearly all the tools your team needs -> check
AEF adds Priest/ToT or Calliope/Ranger plus nondoc Jackson and nondoc recon, thus beeing a good addition for soviet mates -> check
What does UKF has to contribute to the late game?
Comet? -> mutiple Comets will loose to multiple Panthers, use TDs instead
Firefly as TD? -> Jackson is better overall
Churchill? -> there is an Elephant pretty much every game plus Panthers with high penetration, take it to vet the opponent tanks
Valentine? -> Priest is way better
strong offmaps? -> Soviet/AEF have either cheaper versions with same outcome (destroy howitzer) or better ones (destroy tanks)
17pdr/Bofors Emplacements? -> LefH in pretty much every game
UKF just can't compete with team value of Soviet/AEF. Sad.
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also shreks cant fire unless standing still? while ptrs can fire on the move.
imo making the already buff ptrs to 35 range seems fair
No AT handheld can fire on the move. They have to stop, then the aim time starts. The biggest change of the last patch wasn't the third PTRS but the reduction of aim time to Shrek/Bazooka level. Before it was impossible to shoot at a kiting vehicle with PTRS. |
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