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Why is noone talking about the current state of the alpha and the new british units? Does we fear the NDA or the wrath of Sega? I'm not part of the alpha, don't signed any NDA. Is it breaking the rules of this forum to post all the units and tiers that are in the current alpha build? There is a video showing all this things clearly for everyone outside of the alpha. Noone talks about it I'm just wondering. So is it unwanted or immoral that someone like me post such things here?
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OKW has low tech costs and can get their first vehicles early. But you have to keep in mind OKW cant spam them , if you know what he has got you can work around it and counter it, OKW players have to sacrifice spamability and opt to get their vehicles depending on the situation. If OKW goes for vehicles to counter thigns that are already on the field that is a better choice than to just get something because you can
Yes, you are right about them regarding vehicles. They can't spam vehicles, but to make up for this they have strong vehicles (think of AA HT, walking stukka or JagdpanzerIV) and the very best infantry around in this game. OKW is an infantry faction, although many noobs want to play them because of the big tanks. Ostheer is the real tank faction. OKW flexibilty shouldn't break game mechanics. When small tanks hit the field there are counters, thinking of shreks, mines, Raketen, PaKS and so on but there shouldn't be an instant hard counter which makes them obsolete.
Think the other way round and take a different perspective: The time OKW can builds a Luchs, medium tanks are already very close. Shouldn't there be a time window to justify the existence of a unit? |
I mostly pgreelay 1vs1 and I don't think that a Puma comes too early because it is the only thing that helps vs ami AA HT, Greyhound and M3 with flamers (when it is good managed it can easily outmaneuver raketenwerfer). With a RAK, you can maybe scare them away but with a Puma you can actually kill them.
1vs1 is usually about CALLins. In your fuel calculation, you should not forget that Allies have solid CALLins, while OKW has nothing (Elite Armor doesn't come out of the box and you need to spend 210 fuel on them). The Puma is the only thing that keeps you alive in 1vs1 until you save fuel for heavier armor.
As Soviet, who techs to t3 when he/she can go T34 CALLin. As US Force, you usually go to Easy 8 which is an absolute allrounder.
Absolute agree about the Callins. They are just about a little bit too attractive because you spare so much tech cost. One more reason for adjusting tech and CP costs.
Don't agree about Puma. The Luchs should be the first OKW tank and it should counter the US AA HT (lower its pentration), Greyhound and so on. A M3 can really be countered without a Puma, this is overkill. The Luchs should be compareable to T70 and Stuart and all oft hem should arrive before the Puma does. Exchange Luchs and Puma in tech structure, adjust fuel costs so that Luchs, Stuart and T70 arrive at the same time, lower penetration of AA HTs and there you have a time window for small tanks that counter light vehicles of course. |
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Most players seem to agree that tank timing isn't that great worked out at the moment. Puma comes way too early, small tanks in comparison too late. Shouldn't the Luchs, Stuart and T70 be available before the Puma? Heavy Tank Call-ins come a little bit too early. Most of this timing problems would be solvable simply by reorganizing only a few off the Tier units and adjusting the Tier fuel costs as some off you suggested. CP cost for Heavy Call-Ins could be simply raised. I wonder why relic employes don't consider this by themselves. |
Well for US it doesn't feel that the sherman comes that late because you only have to tech LT and you can go straight for major and since you get a free combat unit, teching doesn't even slow down your infantry aggression off course if you get light vehicles your sherman gets pushed back a bit.
So that's 50 LT plus 90 major plus the sherman cost 110 (I think) so 250 not that different from p4 or T34, with doctrines you can skip base upgrades by getting LMG on para or with infantry company, grenades are good but its not impossible to play without them and the most important grenade in my opinion AT nade is unlocked with vet so np, you do need the ambulance before the tank but that's a minor setback.
The puma does seem to come really early but so does the US Halftrack and I believe that's the main reason for the puma timing.
The Soviets T-70 coming late seems to be more a Tier system design flaw by having both light and medium armor in same Tier, this works for OKW having panzer II and Panther because of the huge fuel cost difference between them 55 to 175 and with 66% income,but T-70 and T34 is a mere 30 fuel difference with full income, in order to get an appropriate timing on T-70 the T-34 would come too early.
I actually suggest a crazy idea in another thread to switch T-34 with SU-76 making T3 all about light vehicles and making soviet T4 similar to US T4, I though about keeping the early game the same but making T4 unlocked only after you got 2 tech buildings up.
So you would open with T1 or T2 and unlock T3 tech again and unlock T4 this would mean obvious cost adjustments, you could go T1 T2 and straight T4 for medium armor or first get T1 T3 for light vehicles and then T4 for medium armor.
These are just my thoughts feel free to comment and point out anything I missed or not getting right
Sovjet starts with 50 fuel, US only with 15. I already subtracted this values from the complete fuel costs to make it compareable.
Interesting thoughts about your suggestion of switching tanks. |
T3 costs 120fu.
T-70 costs 70.
120+70=190
You might want to recount a thing or two in your posts and correct it.
Thanks, yes I made a mistake here. 180 would be correct, because you can build T1, then you would have 10 fuel left of you starting fuel. Still there is a time window for the small tanks. |
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Of course ;-) Luchs comes out at about the equivalent of 195 fuel if you go from mechanical or medical truck directly to flack truck. With the munition to fuel ability of the mechanical truck you can do it a little bit faster. Overall a little bit later than a T70 can come out. |
The Jadgpanzer does come out early, but it also does nothing vs infantry. If a P4 came out that early, Houston, we would have a problem.
Although I think Puma is the bigger timing problem: If you have look at SU-85 it clearly comes later. Shouldn't this be similar? |
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I calculated like this: OKW has 40 starting fuel, with this you can build the mechanical truck. Because of the 33% fuel reduction you need the time other factions need to collect 105 fuel for the 70 fuel a puma costs. Of course the ability of the truck can shorten this time to something about roughly 90-95 fuel I would say. Fuel caches are no argument in 2vs2 and up, because Ostheer builds them for OKW. So you own small tanks and you can even have a pair of Pumas when first T34 comes out. I would bet the Pumas stay on top in this matchup. But especially for the small tanks it would be sad if you just can't play them anymore. |
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This is not a topic about units beeing op or beeing to strong, it is rather about the time they hit the battlefield, so I put it here.
I'm playing Sovjet and Ostheer since release in 2vs2 and up, after addon I first tried to play USF, at the moment I'm experimenting with OKW and I wondered about certain timings.
If you have a look at Ostheer and Sovjets you'll see that the first PZIV and the first T34 hit the battlefiel roughly at the same time if you subtract the different starting fuel values. PZIV between 215 and 240 fuel, depending on the amount of tech buildings you build. T34 between 210 and 270 fuel, depending on the choices you make going T1 or T2 and affording grenades or not. A T70 can come out at 180 fuel if you going directly for it, so it can have a time window of 35 or more fuel to put pressure on your opponent. This mechanic seems logical to me.
As I played a 3vs3 with OKW yesterday I already had a JagdpanzerIV out as I saw the first T34 coming and I owned it because of range, damage and a nice high reverse speed as it was going for me. I wondered why I already had this tankkiller at the same time, so I did the math.
If you subtract the starting fuel and take into account OKW gets only 66% fuel the JagdpanzerIV comes at 202,5 fuel. Wow this is early for a dedicated tank killer. In 1vs1 it may come later because you own a lower proportion of the map, but in 2vs2 and up it comes pretty fast.
If you go straight for the mechanical truck instead of the medical truck you can even have a Puma out at 105 fuel. Thats long before the first T70 or Stuart hits the field. And you can do it even faster if you activate the 4 munition for 1 fuel ability on the truck. Isn't it a wrong game mechanic to allow a hard counter to be available long before the unit that gets countered comes out? The Puma with its range, damage and mobility really owns small tanks. The Puma isn't to good on itself but it leaves absolutely no time window for the small tanks.
On the other side Shermans seem to come very late, depending on your choices between 235 and 380 fuel. While you can skip grenades beeing a Sovjet and going for T2->T3, you can't ignore the infantry upgrades and the medic truck beeing USF so you will easily reach something about 280 fuel before you get the first Sherman. At this time even Panthers aren't that far. Isn't this too late for a medium tank?
Feel free to post your opinion. |
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