Wehr weak penetration

Claim- Ost has low pen
Evidence - no they dont
Rebuttal-what about target acquisition and rate of fire and turret rotation?
Straws- grasped at

Probably about time to shut this thread down. I think it's served its purpose... What ever it happened to be...

Don't Axis tanks generally have all-around better stock ROF than allied tanks anyway?

Oh yeah, they do!

M4A3E8 Reload Time: 6.6 - 6
Comet Reload Time: 6.4 - 5.9
T-34/85 Reload Time: 6.3 - 6
M4A3 / Cromwell Reload Time: 6 - 5.6
Panther Reload Time: 5.6 - 5.2
Panzer IV Reload Time: 5.7 - 5.3

And armor...

M36 Jackson Armor: 130

SU-85 / Stug III Armor: 140

T-34/76 Armor: 150

M4A3 Sherman / Cromwell / Firefly / T-34(85) / 76MM Sherman Armor: 160

PzIV (Ostheer Vet 0) Armor: 180

M4A3E8 Sherman Armor: 215

JagdpanzerIV Armor: 230

PzIV (Ostheer Vet 2 and OKW standard) Armor: 234

Panther (Ostheer vet 0) Armor: 260

Panther (Ostheer vet 2) Armor: 286

Comet Armor: 290

Tiger Armor: 300

(inb4 muh IS-2)

And pen ratio!

It is always worth noting when comparing penetration values of axis vs allied tanks that axis vehicles generally enjoy a substantial armor advantage over their allied counterparts. Without this context, Panzer IVs appear woefully inadequate, when in reality a vet 0 Ostheer PzIV enjoys a higher (0.6875) chance to penetrate a T-34/85 at max range than vice versa (0.6667).

It goes without saying that the Panther is also capable of penetrating with any hit that lands on any allied medium tank besides the Comet regardless of distance whereas the opposite is not true for the Easy 8, the 76mm Sherman (with or without HVAP, 220/180/165 with, 120/130/140 without) nor even the Comet.

Last point is also why allied TDs are so ubiquitous.

This whole discussion (especially Panther related stuff) keeps ignoring that one of the main factors that drives tank price is actually armor and HP. The Panther is that expensive because Allied mediums are super unreliable in frontally penetrating it. Also it can take 6 hits insted of 4. The Pen of the Panther is decent, but not needed unless the Allies player calls in a heavy tank. If you just want a next to 100% penetration chance against basically all Allied stock vehicles (and many call ins, too), a StuG would do. What the StuG does not provide is a turret and high survivability ("only" 140 armor and 4 hits worth of HP).

Just comparing raw pen values is pretty much stupid by itself, because it tells you nothing. You need to calculate pen chances against certain targets, but that apparently is too much effort for many of our forum keyboard warriors.


With that said, back to a hopefully more normal discussion.

and you are ignoring rate of fire and gun's arcs as well as how durable their crew is. Pak is only marginally better (which means almost nothing in a real game scenario - 10 more penetration - ridiculous), while othe at guns have wider arcs of fire and often higher rate of fire.

Aren't arcs standardized the exception of Raketenwerfer?
But AT guns are now all pretty close (exception 57mm, which has way lower pen and higher ROF). The ZiS3 has 6 men, but also slower rate of fire. 6-pounder and PaK40 are almost carbon copies, Raketenwerfer has now been more standardized with the range buff, the main differences here are retreat functionality that compensates the lower survivability due to lacking shield and model spacing.
Axis AT guns can basically penetrate all Allied stock units, the limiting factor is hit chance. For Zis and 6Pounder it is the same with the exception of the heaviest Axis tier (Panther, Bummbär and OKW P4). The 57mm even starts to struggle against mediums.

and again the differences are too tiny to be significant. Rate of fire, speed, turret riotation will be more important here. Again the price of p4 might not be justified here, the price of a panther might also be just too high.

As I said, please factor in the armor of the opponent. Against other mediums, the P4 wins at long distances. At short distances (5m), Allied tanks EVEN OUT their penetration chance (almost at least) with every tank having ~75% pen chance against each other. Raw pen values are misleading. Also, the P4 has a very slight edge in ROF, Sherman in moving acc, Cromwell has a bit higher top speed.

I'd say the P4 is fine. Panther is more difficult to compare since there is no direct Allied counterpart. One thing that gets ignored though in the Panther vs Allied TD discussions is that the Panther is way tankier (4 vs 6 hits) for costing about 90MP/45FU (+22,5%/+32,1% over Jackson) more. Now you don't get the additional firepower etc, but for getting 50% more HP and also better armor while similar mobility it's not bad. The main drawback of the Panther is the 10 range difference compared to Allied TDs, which - given the rest of Panthers stats - they also need to be able to deal with a Panther if microed correctly.

snip

i wasnt doing any comparison beyond penetration... ROF/DPS isnt included in the scope of the discussion... any claim however of OST penetration being low or weak is completely unsubstatiated...

Ok. There are so many stats that probably the best idea is to test it anyway. Maybe we should have sth like tightrope sort of tests with like 10 same vehicles shooting at each other just to check. If each of us bprovided one video we could finally settle the keyboard war. I'm especially intereated in say 10 ost p4s shooting at 10 shermans medium distance. That could be ten pairs at different distances.

Ok. There are so many stats that probably the best idea is to test it anyway. Maybe we should have sth like tightrope sort of tests with like 10 same vehicles shooting at each other just to check. If each of us bprovided one video we could finally settle the keyboard war. I'm especially intereated in say 10 ost p4s shooting at 10 shermans medium distance. That could be ten pairs at different distances.

well thats beyond the scope of a penetration discussion... it also probably deserves a thread of its own... u can make one if u like...

but the P4 compensates for its lower penetration at mid-short range with higher armor and long range penetration...

but that is the key of the problem - many players feel certain faction uderperform, when it is the axis the threads are too quickly closed or laughed at.

ive identified my suspicion as to why OST underperforms already.....

it has no LV comparable to the luchs/stuart/T-70/AEC in the mechanized meta... which is why this discussion is really handy

https://www.coh2.org/topic/99644/short-barreled-p4-for-ost

What you feel doesn't matter. Stats are what matters. And if you learn to read stats you will realize that Panther stomps Comet due to more HP, less reload, more penetration and more range.

Comet
160 DPS
800 HP
average chance to pen Panther: 73%
5.9-6.4 reload
same accuracy 0.06/0.045/0.035
range 45

Panther
160 DPS
960 HP
5.2 - 5.6 reload
average chance to pen Comet: 82.8%
range 50
same accuracy 0.06/0.045/0.035

Check your numbers they seem to be off.
Accuracy for Comet should be :
0.066/0.0495/0.033

And they are not directly comparable since the values are at different ranges.

In addition the are rather misleading since the vehicles have different sizes.

Finally average chance to penetrate does not say much since again we are talking different ranges and different penetration drop off:
At Range 45 Comet has 65% chance to penetrate a Panther.
AT range 50 Panther has 76% chance to penetrate a Comet.

you mean this?

Churchill Croc/AVRE : 290
Churchill : 240
Comet: 290
Pershing: 270
IS2: 375
ISU152: 340
KV1: 270
KV2: 300
KV8: 260

vs
Brumbar front/side armor 240, vet 288
Panther front/side armor 260, vet 286
Tiger front/side armor: 300


well youve ignored a large number of axis armor

KT 375
ele 400
JT 525
JP4 230


youve also posted penetration data that did not support your claim of wehrmacht having weaker penetration...

the panther is tied with the jackson in terms of penetration

Panther: 260/240/220
Jackson: 260/240/220
SU85: 240/230/220
FF: 260/240/210


youre also ignoring AT gun penetration... where OST is tied with UKF

Pak40: 210/200/190
6pdr: 210/200/190
Zis-3: 200/190/180
rak43: 200/190/180
57mm: 150/140/130

and of course medium penetration... where OST has the highest long range penetration and decent midrange penetration...

crom: 135/120/105
M4: 140/120/100
P4: 125/115/110
T-34: 120/100/80

and infantry AT... where OST/OKW win outright

panzerschreck: 180/170/160
bazooka: 130/120/110
PIAT: 130/116/110
PTRS: 100/85/70


i can humiliate you further by delving deeper into armor comparisons aswell... but the amount of information might overwhelm your insignificant mind...


substandard penetration my arse... caps my arse... stfu and l2p

Are you that fearful of changes and breaking of dated traditions?

Smh at least reread the thread header and my first few thread replies. All answer your concerns and the issues on hand.

Claim- Ost has low pen
Evidence - no they dont
Rebuttal-what about target acquisition and rate of fire and turret rotation?
Straws- grasped at

Probably about time to shut this thread down. I think it's served its purpose... What ever it happened to be...

No we shouldn't.

Aside from helpful ideas given, this has been a good open realisation and therapy discussions against what's on the surface and what's beneath.

The old traditions need a rethink. As a wehrboo 2v2 since the alpha coh2, i seen the Wehr wehrness been chipping away. May be 2v2 lies in a hard spot, not enough sharing of 4v4 yet more possibilities than 1v1 target balance

I seen a lot of past competition and pro player stream and lets observed this weekend big one. I feel its going to highlight something interesting.

Imo the recent big patch hit 2 main points.

1.weaken okw
2. Push medium farther for heavies earlier.

And it is 2. That seems a tie in for this topic. A nice coincidence with observable results soon and we may have to revisit points in this thread!

Are you that fearful of changes and breaking of dated traditions?

Smh at least reread the thread header and my first few thread replies. All answer your concerns and the issues on hand.

No... all ive done is prove that all your claims are a pile of bullshit

Yes by selectively ignore my second reply in this thread. Smh

At what?

Because against each other, panther roflstomps comet.

Nevermind the stats, that is always true, even more so in high ranked 1on1/2on2.

But Comets are such pathetic units, and it's best to invest the hard earned resources elsewhere.

The real problem is that Ost doesn't have a 60 range TD let alone a 60 range TD with good penetration and RoF like the Su85 and Jackson. OKW basically has a 60 range well armored Stug. The only 200+ pen axis stock tank is a slow shooting 50 range "premium" tank that's locked away in a premium tier for Ost. The Allies have more variety when it comes to heavy armor especially Soviets. In reality, Axis, especially Ost has the most trouble in dealing with heavy allied armor as Stug is only 50 range and panther is locked in T4. OKW has it slightly better as JP4 has 60 range although low pen and panther is much more accessible.

The real problem is that Ost doesn't have a 60 range TD let alone a 60 range TD with good penetration and RoF like the Su85 and Jackson. OKW basically has a 60 range well armored Stug. The only 200+ pen axis stock tank is a slow shooting 50 range "premium" tank that's locked away in a premium tier for Ost. The Allies have more variety when it comes to heavy armor especially Soviets. In reality, Axis, especially Ost has the most trouble in dealing with heavy allied armor as Stug is only 50 range and panther is locked in T4. OKW has it slightly better as JP4 has 60 range although low pen and panther is much more accessible.

Well, you can start petitioning for removal of panther in favor of buffing StuG.
Panther doesn't even need to be replaced! We can just make the tier cheaper, so it'll be easier to call-in heavies and get remaining units.

Because as long as panther exists, neither ost nor okw will ever get long range td with high pen that isn't doctrinal super heavy.

Well, you can start petitioning for removal of panther in favor of buffing StuG.
Panther doesn't even need to be replaced! We can just make the tier cheaper, so it'll be easier to call-in heavies and get remaining units.

Because as long as panther exists, neither ost nor okw will ever get long range td with high pen that isn't doctrinal super heavy.

I think there is a better solution. Give stug range 60. Don't change anything else. You could make it a bit more expensive.

Generally, range is the most important factor. Stug has no turret. Should be perfectly counterable. Most players don't realise that in tank battles the ability to make your opponent dive is the most lethal, if you have more range your opponent will have to dive to even have a chance of penetrating your armour. A diving vehicle does not have a line of sight - the defending vehicle will have it, and will shoot at the attacker while the diving vehicle may have problems even connecting shots. On top of that there will be other units supporting the kiting unit hitting the diver. This is when most damage is done and often the diving vehicle will get snared (sometimes with satchels).

I think there is a better solution. Give stug range 60. Don't change anything else. You could make it a bit more expensive.

You're delusional if you think something as massive as range increase can happen to a unit like that without equally massive nerf elsewhere or high cost increase.

You're delusional if you think something as massive as range increase can happen to a unit like that without equally massive nerf elsewhere or high cost increase.

Well, I'm not. It could be aquired with vet, done through upgrade (similar to doctrine sherman paid with fuel and mp after last tech, for example). I don't understand why factions that have access to snares such as satchels and ability to equip any unit with hand held at don't have to face 60 range tank destroyers form ostheer side. Having buffed allied armour and not allowing ostheer something so basic is more "delusional".

The real problem is that Ost doesn't have a 60 range TD let alone a 60 range TD with good penetration and RoF like the Su85 and Jackson. OKW basically has a 60 range well armored Stug. The only 200+ pen axis stock tank is a slow shooting 50 range "premium" tank that's locked away in a premium tier for Ost. The Allies have more variety when it comes to heavy armor especially Soviets. In reality, Axis, especially Ost has the most trouble in dealing with heavy allied armor as Stug is only 50 range and panther is locked in T4. OKW has it slightly better as JP4 has 60 range although low pen and panther is much more accessible.

I will also re highlight Wehr vet bonus and upgrades are not as good this days.

Pintle..
Blitz..
10% armour..

Imo these don't supplement its role and at the late stage of a game, pales in comparison to 60TD vet bonus

Little things taken for granted have a cascading effect on those play the faction more.

We shall see how the upcoming tournament turns out for Wehr boo. Im going on a limb, most under performing faction if selected...

I think there is a better solution. Give stug range 60. Don't change anything else. You could make it a bit more expensive.

Generally, range is the most important factor. Stug has no turret. Should be perfectly counterable. Most players don't realise that in tank battles the ability to make your opponent dive is the most lethal, if you have more range your opponent will have to dive to even have a chance of penetrating your armour. A diving vehicle does not have a line of sight - the defending vehicle will have it, and will shoot at the attacker while the diving vehicle may have problems even connecting shots. On top of that there will be other units supporting the kiting unit hitting the diver. This is when most damage is done and often the diving vehicle will get snared (sometimes with satchels).

Yes good points all around. Certain attributes are more determinstic than others for certain roles

But i still go for heat ap ammo as a vet bonus for the 3 wehr tanks.

It is a tested out come, easy to implement and a mixture of vipper selectable ammo idea.