15 minute Tiger/Tiger Ace in 4v4

They didn't have the resources to rebalance all the heavy tanks in the last patch.

All the heavies are slated to be rebalanced in the next big patch.



Then we'd have created three new Heavy Staller commanders for 1v1 and we'd have no idea how heavies tied to tech play.

I personally would have tied them all to tech blind and seen where things land, but tying two is better than tying zero in my book.

Then I do not see the point why the Tiger was touched, it could be changed like the rest of the heavy tanks in the next patch. But he was clumsily touched, and now we have a stupidest situation.

And as you noted above, they have no time. So it is not known how long it will take to rebalance heavy tanks. This may take another half a year, so I think we need an urgent hotfix that will return the binding to the CP to Tiger in order to eliminate this situation. And then more carefully rebalance heavy tanks.

things

What are you on about? Either you misunderstood me, or you've never played this game. I'm going to assume the former and explain more clearly:

for 1vs1, adding a CP lock won't make any difference than what it is now (I.E. no CP required), because pace of aquiring CPs is faster than the pace of teching.

In 4vs4(or large team modes in general) tech lock deosn't work, since you can have last tech building by 12-15 min. (around 5-6 CP), and thats without considering rushing and/or fuel funneling strats. Literally tanks which unlocked at CP13 are now ~CP6, long before late-game AT offmaps even become available, If you don't think that is not right then I don't know what to tell you
That's why they need to have a CP requirement, it could be lower, CP 10-11 maybe, but it needs to be there, else we have to shuffle all other commander abilities.

Then I do not see the point why the Tiger was touched, it could be changed like the rest of the heavy tanks in the next patch. But he was clumsily touched, and now we have a stupidest situation.

The basic Tiger wasn't.

The Command Tiger is a new unit in the OKW commander, and they tied it to tech because if they didn't they'd end up creating a better version of Special Operations.

Once they'd done that, they figured they might as well do the same thing with the Tiger Ace, which is also a unit in the new commanders.

The basic Tiger wasn't.

The Command Tiger is a new unit in the OKW commander, and they tied it to tech because if they didn't they'd end up creating a better version of Special Operations.

Once they'd done that, they figured they might as well do the same thing with the Tiger Ace, which is also a unit in the new commanders.

The problem is: CP gain and unlocking of units and abilities is balanced within the CP structure itself. If you take some units out of the structure but leave the rest where it is, it surely will become unbalanced. How to even think about making heavy tanks tech dependent but leaving AT offmap at 12CP? How to even think about leaving all the other unit call-ins without a change with CP requirement in the CP structure while removing only the heavies? This will open up the box of pandora regarding balance issues. Balance will be far worse than it was as all heavies had a CP requirement.

The problem is: CP gain and unlocking of units and abilities is balanced within the CP structure itself

But this isn't really true. CP gain is disproportionate to resource gain across the modes. This is why stalling for a 13CP heavy is viable in 1v1 but 13CPs is way too late for team games (in 3v3 and 4v4 there will be Panthers around 8-9 CPs). This is also why certain other units like the M8 Greyhound and Valentine have always had problematic/bad timings in team games.

Also, I don't think it's fair to directly compare the high CP offmap/strafe abilities to heavy tanks because these abilities are not strictly meant to counter heavies. They sure help, but they help counter any vehicles. They are not a direct counterpart to heavies.

But this isn't really true. CP gain is disproportionate to resource gain across the modes. This is why stalling for a 13CP heavy is viable in 1v1 but 13CPs is way too late for team games (in 3v3 and 4v4 there will be Panthers around 8-9 CPs). This is also why certain other units like the M8 Greyhound and Valentine have always had problematic/bad timings in team games.

Also, I don't think it's fair to directly compare the high CP offmap/strafe abilities to heavy tanks because these abilities are not strictly meant to counter heavies. They sure help, but they help counter any vehicles. They are not a direct counterpart to heavies.

Is it technicly possible to split the balance changes across the gamemodes? Assuming of course Relic would agree on it. Idea would be to remain the CP requirement for 3v3/4v4 and pin heavies into T4 in 1v1 and 2v2 - as it is a good change.

PS: If Tiger comes in 15 min mark then panther (which costs 45 fuel less) will hit the field around 13 min but no1 ever complained about that and people apparently found a way to deal with it.

Is it technicly possible to split the balance changes across the gamemodes? Assuming of course Relic would agree on it. Idea would be to remain the CP requirement for 3v3/4v4 and pin heavies into T4 in 1v1 and 2v2 - as it is a good change.

PS: If Tiger comes in 15 min mark then panther (which costs 45 fuel less) will hit the field around 13 min but no1 ever complained about that and people apparently found a way to deal with it.

...but people do complain about panther spam in team games... It's the whole reason why the M36 thread is so many pages long.

Is there really any sort of real rational reason not to have HTs behind both tech AND CPs, or is the whole line of defense for this adjustment simply stubbornly implying that this system works perfectly fine now and such a change would somehow ruin something.

But this isn't really true. CP gain is disproportionate to resource gain across the modes.

The CP values are balanced in internal CP comparison by CP value. So there is a balance between the units, abilities and counter-units/counter-abilities. Thats what I wanted to say.

This is why stalling for a 13CP heavy is viable in 1v1 but 13CPs is way too late for team games (in 3v3 and 4v4 there will be Panthers around 8-9 CPs). This is also why certain other units like the M8 Greyhound and Valentine have always had problematic/bad timings in team games.

Also, I don't think it's fair to directly compare the high CP offmap/strafe abilities to heavy tanks because these abilities are not strictly meant to counter heavies. They sure help, but they help counter any vehicles. They are not a direct counterpart to heavies.

3vs3 and 4vs4 with friends is my favourite gamemode since this game came out. Its so much fun to coordinate with others and yelling at each other in teamspeak. At least one of our games out of 3 will reach a hour gameplay where heavies roam the field for more than half an hour. Its true you don't stall for a heavy in teamgames and thats really a good thing. Usually they'll hit the field in addition to your existing T4 tech. In spite of that I had vet3 KW-2 and I had vet5 Jagdtiger, because that games took that long.

Regarding lights/mediums you are right. They really should be bound to tech, because they come way too late in bigger gamemodes to have a justification to be build ever. Often enough their game phase is over already once you have the CPs to call them in. I never understood why they left some of them bound to CPs while others were integrated into tech.

Heavies/Suoer heavies and the big artillery pieces on the other side can't come too late, they are at the end of the food chain, nothing behind them that ends their phase. Yeah, some shorter games could be already over then, but I don't need heavies/super heavies in every single battle.

Regarding 12CP offmap abilities. There is a reason why they came at the same times as the heavy tanks came. There is a reason why units like Calliope and Priest for example came out earlier. We will just throw that completely out of the window. 3vs3/4vs4 will change vastly if you bind heavies only to tech.

The CP values are balanced in internal CP comparison by CP value. So there is a balance between the units, abilities and counter-units/counter-abilities. Thats what I wanted to say.

All the Command Points infrastructure can really do effectively is:
1) Make sure similar abilities/units have the same timing across different factions (f.e. Tiger vs IS-2);
2) Act as an artificial timing requirement for units that do not fit in anywhere else in tech (Elite Infantry, M8 Greyhound, Valentine, etc.), in conjunction with point #1;
3) Act as the requirement for abilities as it's the only timing barrier available for those.

CP values themselves are flawed because as I said, they are disproportionate to the income gain difference between the different game modes.

Although it works well enough for most abilities, the inherent flaw of this system is that it is seperate from resource income and teching. This means that for example at 13CP, in team games, the Tiger comes out at the same time as the IS-2, but much later than its stock counters (tank destroyers). That is why CP value alone doesn't work for heavy tanks in my opinion. A high CP requirement also causes the problem that heavy tanks do not have an opportunity/shock window that most other units (like the first light or medium vehicle) have. The 13CP requirement has always made heavy tanks very difficult to use in team games because they arrive so late they have to go up against vetted TDs and ATGs and usually can't achieve much because of this.


It's also why I personally don't mind these heavy tank (Tiger) rushes, because Jacksons and Fireflies are easily available at the same time (usually even well before) a rushed Tiger or Ace comes onto the field and it's pretty easy to deduct when the enemy is rushing them. A timely TD will be enough to mitigate the impact of a heavy tank (for just a bit over half the price) until the TD can be reinforced by other units or abilities to ultimately counter and destroy the heavy. But I do understand a lot of people appear to have issues with them, so it's likely that something has to be done about it. Probably either a 100-120s build time or the hybrid tech + 8-9CPs restrictions (even though I personally don't really like the latter).

1) Make sure similar abilities/units have the same timing across different factions (f.e. Tiger vs IS-2);

I sign that instantly.

2) Act as an artificial timing requirement for units that do not fit in anywhere else in tech (Elite Infantry, M8 Greyhound, Valentine, etc.), in conjunction with point #1;

You would find a place for these: Elite infantry for example maybe at T3. Valentine for example once you researched Bofors or AEC. Priest/Calliope at T4. Artillery emplacements buildable by engineers once T4 building is build. Only some quick thoughts, but I believe you could integrate them.

3) Act as the requirement for abilities as it's the only timing barrier available for those.

You could bind them to tech or side tech too, but for me CPs are a kind of alternative ressources that you gain even if you are behind. In addition CP gain rewards you for helping your teammates in teamgames, instead of digging in.

CP values themselves are flawed because as I said, they are disproportionate to the income gain difference between the different game modes.

I could say CPs stay always the same. The problem is that everybody gets the ressources for a fuel cache build by one player for example (even OKW which can't build caches by itself, but has salvage). The problem ist that players have abilities to tranfer fuel and so on. This mechanisms are flawed.

Although it works well enough for most abilities, ...(all the things you wrote here)... But I do understand a lot of people appear to have issues with them, so it's likely that something has to be done about it. Probably either a 100-120s build time or the hybrid tech + 8-9CPs restrictions (even though I personally don't really like the latter).

What you say surely isn't wrong. But my personal experience is another one. Up to now we spent a lot of fuel for Shermans / T-34s (both versions) / Cromwells to put pressure on our opponents. This phase will be vastly reduced if not obsolete if 2 mins later there is a rushed Tiger. Reason: You can't beat a Tiger with this medium tanks if you are playing versus equally skilled opponents. 3vs3/4vs4 maps are so crowded, with so few space left for a succesful flank, that the TD is the only reaonable counter. Heavy vehicle rush kills medium vehicle phase. I rather get my heavies later to have a more diverse game overall.

A combined requirement of tech and CPs is something I could accept too.

I would like a count-down, e.g. 20 minutes fixed cool-down from start of game.

Or, a 5 minutes fixed cool-down after T4 was build. (so, Tiger needs 5 mins longer than current). That would be my favorite.



Edit: beside, please remove the CP of StuG E. Move it into T2 instead, with T3 tech requirement.

When talking about TA they say get TDs. Thats all. As if there is barely anything except that TA on the field.

Most likely TDs wont work. Only isu152 somehow counters it. That means same doc EVERY game.

TA have basicaly same price as other heavies outperforming them easily. Im for removing this unit from the game. Fixing its timing wont fix anything. In one thing im sure there isnt anything nondoc to even softcounter TA.

My goodness

When talking about TA they say get TDs. Thats all. As if there is barely anything except that TA on the field.

Most likely TDs wont work. Only isu152 somehow counters it. That means same doc EVERY game.

TA have basicaly same price as other heavies outperforming them easily. Im for removing this unit from the game. Fixing its timing wont fix anything. In one thing im sure there isnt anything nondoc to even softcounter TA.

May it be simply because all heavies come way later the TD timestamp? Any normal skill player will proactively get TDs instead of ATGs since the former is much more mobile and safer to use.

Tiger ace can deal with ATG without support but not if any mainline inf is nearby. It will give a lot of pain to deal with but its no diferent than any other doctrinal shock unit. It forces to play reactively instead but a mistake using TA means a big throw.

IMO there are plenty of tools to deal with a pesky 15 min TA, but i understand how annoying it is. It also cant win the game itself, TA requires a lot of leverage of the teammates and combined arms.

Im dont really agree with TA 15 min meta, but it can be fixed increasing buildtimes or teching times.
I think people should look after when the other heavies become tied to tech also instead of simply asking to nerf the tiger

Skippyfx Team Can call 4 Tiger Ace under 15 min on Stepper

So, the problem is that we’re having trouble with the timing on these big, powerful, expensive units right? Being tied to CPs meant they came too late in team games, being tied to tech only means they are at times now coming too early and stomping everything right? In 1v1s stall to heavy is strong enough that other balancing decisions are made around it (cons 7 man upgrade); and across all modes, TDs are oppressively strong largely to deal with them. Seems to me like the problem is more with the heavy units themselves throwing everything out of whack.

Maybe it would require too much tuning, but it seems to me that if you tied heavies to tech as well as cps, but lowered the cp requirement to 8 or 9, then reduced both the cost and effectiveness of heavies down to be more like premium, premium mediums, and capped them to one out at a time, you could let people play with their toys without everything being so life or death.

In the same way that premium mediums are better than mediums but not so much so that regular mediums are obsolete when they’re out, make heavies the same degree of tier above premium mediums. Lower the heavies health and armor down to be a grade above premium mediums and reduce their cost to be more like a panther. Cap them at one out at a time so that they aren’t spammed in team games. (Most are already no?).

If heavies were less powerful, you could also reduce the effectiveness of units like the Jackson, su-85 and panther which many players have recently expressed as feeling too smothering of medium armor.

Making heavies more accessible via cost and timing would also mean that picking a commander with a heavy in it would mean that the player would get to more extensively play with said units every match. Since you could only have one out at a time, you would still maintain unit diversity with cheaper heavies. .

All around seems like a win. Players get to use their heavies earlier and more often but they aren’t such the game swaying units that they single handedly end games without large amounts of dedicated AT.

Like I said, it would take a lot of tuning to get all the numbers right, but philosophically, what I’m suggesting is to reduce the cost and power of heavies so that they more easily fit into builds like other units and don’t cause other cascading balance problems.

One can simply try to adjust CP gain across modes

Or we could just leave both requirements in place (CP and tech). That way it actually works for both sets of gamemodes. No more no major tech pershings in 1v1s and no more 15 minute 4v4 tiger aces. The fact that tiger aces pretty easily self spot and wipe at guns is pretty cheesy IMO too.

My best games are when the armor damage is spread around between armor and my other options like the 57mm, the Lt. Bazooka, and even the P47 rocket strike. Think of your other options and strategies that may be possible while the Germans stall for a Tiger. I like the writer above who says people have to adjust strategy after patches. At first it always seems someone else got the advantage until you think more about your doctrines, strats, and build orders.

I am a very aggressive US player and favor the doctrines that get me fast assaults on fuel while the Germans are under manned waiting for armor. It frustrates me in 3v3 and 4v4 that ally team mates want to build out their entire build order with defenses and better armor when they had the chance in early game to flank early mgs, push the Germans back and control the fuel which is the real key to winning as USF. Many of my 1v1 are being won before we get through the light vehicle buildout as the Germans starve for fuel and lose map control.
One other point, don't under estimate the value of pathfinders or Greyhounds as spotters to get the first shot or a flank on the Germans. USF tanks have better range. I don't think an M10 spam is the answer but I think an M10, a 57mm atg and a Sherman 76mm or better an Easy 8 will make short work of a PzIV and even a Panther. Only the Pershing matches up with the Tiger Ace if it is pushing you though. USF is hard but not impossible.

Why tiger is a call-in while M10 is not.