I think the camo and creeping has broken this AT gun. Some tweaking is needed, meaning nerfs and buffs.
My idea would be give it a 5th man and 60 range. In exchange it loses camo and the ability to retreat.
If people want camo to stay for the flavor of assymetry, than you shouldn't be able to move while camo'd and the pack-up time should be longer while it's active. I also think it should need cover to camo like a stealth squad
The retreat function is what enables this agressive creeping because otherwise you'd be giving away a free Rak to your opponent everytime you did it. Hence why no one ZiS creeps even if they have ambush tactics
Rak 43 proposal
8 Mar 2019, 19:38 PM
#1
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
8 Mar 2019, 20:10 PM
#2
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
I would try the following changes:
1) Veterancy overhaul so that bonuses do not revolve mostly around cloak and also benefit garrison
2) Cloak available only when stationary
3) Reaction times greatly reduced
4) lowered penetration but deflection damage similar to other rocket munition
5) 0.9 damage reduction of crew
6) greater angle when in trench
7) maybe damage reduction
Now requires first set up. Faust unlocked when Truck is built
1) Veterancy overhaul so that bonuses do not revolve mostly around cloak and also benefit garrison
2) Cloak available only when stationary
3) Reaction times greatly reduced
4) lowered penetration but deflection damage similar to other rocket munition
5) 0.9 damage reduction of crew
6) greater angle when in trench
7) maybe damage reduction
Now requires first set up. Faust unlocked when Truck is built
8 Mar 2019, 20:18 PM
#3
Posts: 155
I agree with most of what Vipper said. The Rak isn't in that bad of a spot right now, but changing its range to 60 and making it unable to retreat just turns it into a slightly weaker Pak40 with 10 less penetration.
8 Mar 2019, 20:23 PM
#4
Posts: 2358
I'd say that raks are not "broken" in the meaning of OPness, but broken because they fail to complete they prupose. Cheeseketen is the only way to push back its AT capabilities.
Ambush mechanic is an aggressive one and raketen is meant to be that way, but that causes a missing defensive AT. IMO is not a problem but many people would say its a problem.
camo creep is really cheesy, i dont like it either. But the ambush mechanic should stay.
What if raketen had 2 fire modes, one when deployed that camoes itself and has extra range and damage and other one without being deployed, that is rather fast to shoot and move but has less range and acc.
Edit: Adding, like a really big and slow Pzfaust with 4 man crew
Also, retreat could stay if this mechanic were to be implemented.
In the end it has to be a mobile weaker AT gun.
Ambush mechanic is an aggressive one and raketen is meant to be that way, but that causes a missing defensive AT. IMO is not a problem but many people would say its a problem.
camo creep is really cheesy, i dont like it either. But the ambush mechanic should stay.
What if raketen had 2 fire modes, one when deployed that camoes itself and has extra range and damage and other one without being deployed, that is rather fast to shoot and move but has less range and acc.
Edit: Adding, like a really big and slow Pzfaust with 4 man crew
Also, retreat could stay if this mechanic were to be implemented.
In the end it has to be a mobile weaker AT gun.
8 Mar 2019, 20:29 PM
#5
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
I'd say that raks are not "broken" in the meaning of OPness, but broken because they fail to complete they prupose. Cheeseketen is the only way to push back its AT capabilities.
I agree with that, its also better at lower elo since double raken can go around and burst tanks down against people who have poorer micro. It also improves a lot with Vet if you can vet it up, however the crew seems to stand ontop of eachother and all die instantly to any arti or lucky tank shell.
Still it sucks to use and sucks to play against.
bg /l
8 Mar 2019, 21:10 PM
#6
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
While damage reduction is nice, I'm not sure how much it'll do. Usually, if a tank round lands near the crew, it'll get instawiped, .9 damage modifier or not.
8 Mar 2019, 21:17 PM
#7
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
While damage reduction is nice, I'm not sure how much it'll do. Usually, if a tank round lands near the crew, it'll get instawiped, .9 damage modifier or not.
The value is more of an estimation probably needs to be tested...
8 Mar 2019, 21:44 PM
#8
Posts: 4474
pak 38
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
8 Mar 2019, 21:47 PM
#9
Posts: 264
The main thing you need to accomplish in this nerf is to make the rak useful without players building 4-5 of them, stealthing them across the map, and just instantly killing any medium they want. Then just retreating.
I think whatever happens the MAIN Thing that has to happen is it cannot move while stealthed anymore period and must be in some form of cover to be stealthed.
Give it a 5th man to make it more durable, they die pretty fast. But its not fun to play OKW needing a 3-4 rak-pak and its not fun to fight it either.
I think whatever happens the MAIN Thing that has to happen is it cannot move while stealthed anymore period and must be in some form of cover to be stealthed.
Give it a 5th man to make it more durable, they die pretty fast. But its not fun to play OKW needing a 3-4 rak-pak and its not fun to fight it either.
Axis biased, Allied biased. Play every faction before you scream nerf, be a Coh2 player not an "Axis" or "Allied" player.
Playercard: 76561198006693960
Playercard: 76561198006693960
8 Mar 2019, 22:44 PM
#10
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
but changing its range to 60 and making it unable to retreat just turns it into a slightly weaker Pak40 with 10 less penetration.
That option included an extra man, so it would be more durable than the Pak and it can still be garrisoned. But I included different options for that exact reason, I don't think it's good for the game if it all the units slowly become more similar.
I think retreat should maybe be disabled when camoflauged. Give removing camo a 5 second timer, and now you can't have people just hitting "T" everytime they get discovered.
8 Mar 2019, 23:23 PM
#11
Posts: 5279
I agree with most of what Vipper said. The Rak isn't in that bad of a spot right now, but changing its range to 60 and making it unable to retreat just turns it into a slightly weaker Pak40 with 10 less penetration.
And 50mp chaeaper and able to garrison and more durable.
#stalinwept
9 Mar 2019, 00:42 AM
#12
Posts: 682
raks are more durable than paks? I feel like if you sneeze on them their volksturm crew will run for the hills
/s
9 Mar 2019, 02:04 AM
#13
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
raks are more durable than paks? I feel like if you sneeze on them their volksturm crew will run for the hills
*They would be if they had a 5th man. This is in the context of the suggestion I made in the OP, but I think people favor a different route anyway
1) Veterancy overhaul so that bonuses do not revolve mostly around cloak and also benefit garrison
I very much agree with this especially the garrison part. I don't know if it's not functional enough or there's not a lot of maps where it's effective, but I don't see/use this feature enough.
My hunch is that camo makes using buildings with the Rak not worth it.
9 Mar 2019, 02:31 AM
#14
Posts: 184
*They would be if they had a 5th man. This is in the context of the suggestion I made in the OP, but I think people favor a different route anyway
I very much agree with this especially the garrison part. I don't know if it's not functional enough or there's not a lot of maps where it's effective, but I don't see/use this feature enough.
My hunch is that camo makes using buildings with the Rak not worth it.
Garrisoning raketen is completely useless because it won't prioritize vehicles anymore.
9 Mar 2019, 02:39 AM
#15
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Garrisoning raketen is completely useless because it won't prioritize vehicles anymore.
Well that sounds like something that should be fixed.
9 Mar 2019, 02:48 AM
#16
Posts: 3053
I would try the following changes:
1) Veterancy overhaul so that bonuses do not revolve mostly around cloak and also benefit garrison
2) Cloak available only when stationary
3) Reaction times greatly reduced
4) lowered penetration but deflection damage similar to other rocket munition
5) 0.9 damage reduction of crew
6) greater angle when in trench
7) maybe damage reduction
Now requires first set up. Faust unlocked when Truck is built
+1
Replacing the .9 damage reduction with 5th man might have some merits, since for whatever reason the thing seems to be really easy to wipe with explosives, but that could potentially make it too tough, especially if it keeps a retreat function. Removing the retreat in exchange for 60 range (in conjunction with 5 man squad) might be better IMO too, since it would remove cheese that makes it annoying to play against but also address something that makes it slightly annoying/harder to use.
Lowered penetration could make it really annoying to use too though. If one really wanted to make it less lethal I think a firerate reduction or even (mayyyyyybeee) damage reduction.
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9 Mar 2019, 09:01 AM
#17
Posts: 44
That option included an extra man, so it would be more durable than the Pak and it can still be garrisoned. But I included different options for that exact reason, I don't think it's good for the game if it all the units slowly become more similar.
I think retreat should maybe be disabled when camoflauged. Give removing camo a 5 second timer, and now you can't have people just hitting "T" everytime they get discovered.
Just another man would not cut it, because due to its miniscule shield, the two operators die all the time.
The raketen is basically the maxim of ATGs.
Constant death loops until decrewed.
9 Mar 2019, 11:34 AM
#18
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Lowered penetration could make it really annoying to use too though. If one really wanted to make it less lethal I think a firerate reduction or even (mayyyyyybeee) damage reduction.
One historical way to make it unique is to give it the same (high) penetration at all ranges, but reduce damage to 120 or 100. Since it fires HEAT rockets.
9 Mar 2019, 11:38 AM
#19
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
If camo is such an issue, just make it same as ZiS-3 camo, where its effective just to change facing when in camo.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
9 Mar 2019, 12:11 PM
#20
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Actually Zis get a huge buff with first strike bonus and Zis camo would be buff to Rak.
ATGs should simply not be able to move when cloaked only to rotate
ATGs should simply not be able to move when cloaked only to rotate
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