Soviets are OP

depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot.

the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals.

Hey there, how's still living in 2016 going for you?

Hey there, how's still living in 2016 going for you?

I wish I was able to do that too... Maybe this guy will share his secret with us.

While I don't agree with the exact points OP gave, I do agree that soviets seem to be over performing a bit, especially in larger team games.

Particularly, the self-spotting mortars thanks to flairs and penals seem to be the main issues I can think of. The former seems out of place, since indirect fire shouldn't be able to self spot, and the later seems to be entirely due to the early scaling of penals.

Once a soviet player gets two Vet 1 mortars, they are basically impossible to counter, since they can constantly self spot - it also makes getting your own mortars incredibly challenging, which means ost has basically no structure clearing abilities, save for the weaker flamer-pios.

As for penals, the main problem is that their vet 0/1 performance is far too high, meaning late-game losses aren't too much of a problem. I think their Vet 2/3 performance should stay about the same, as well as cost, but their current performance vs. vet 3 grens at medium range is just far too high at vet 0/1, trivializing late game engagements. An alternative to a direct debuff to this unit would be increasing its pop-cap, meaning that supporting 4+ squads as well as other units would become much harder.

An argument could also be made the the PTRS upgrade doesn't seem like a 'trade' in terms of AT vs. AI, but just an overall upgrade. IMO it should work more like the shrek upgrade for PGrens, where AI power is dramatically reduced for AT power.

depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot.

the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals.

yea.... you might want to at least try the soviet here bud... rank 300 with ost is great but you lose a lot of weight behind you when you dont even know how a faction you are complaining about works...

everything but heavy tanks that are limited to 1 need soviet t4 to BUILD (not even call ins, they need to be built)

play soviet and see how well you get off, itll help you understand their weaknesses as well

While I don't agree with the exact points OP gave, I do agree that soviets seem to be over performing a bit, especially in larger team games.

Particularly, the self-spotting mortars thanks to flairs and penals seem to be the main issues I can think of. The former seems out of place, since indirect fire shouldn't be able to self spot, and the later seems to be entirely due to the early scaling of penals.

Once a soviet player gets two Vet 1 mortars, they are basically impossible to counter, since they can constantly self spot - it also makes getting your own mortars incredibly challenging, which means ost has basically no structure clearing abilities, save for the weaker flamer-pios.

As for penals, the main problem is that their vet 0/1 performance is far too high, meaning late-game losses aren't too much of a problem. I think their Vet 2/3 performance should stay about the same, as well as cost, but their current performance vs. vet 3 grens at medium range is just far too high at vet 0/1, trivializing late game engagements. An alternative to a direct debuff to this unit would be increasing its pop-cap, meaning that supporting 4+ squads as well as other units would become much harder.

An argument could also be made the the PTRS upgrade doesn't seem like a 'trade' in terms of AT vs. AI, but just an overall upgrade. IMO it should work more like the shrek upgrade for PGrens, where AI power is dramatically reduced for AT power.

Ost mortar has counter barrage at vet 1. It isent mind bogeling good but its usefull. Those mortar flare rounds cost 40 a pop i believe.

As for garrison counters, the flametrack melts anything in a building or garrison. And pio,s are better then combat engies by a large margin. Extra long sight range and up close they do pretty decent damage.

As for penals vet 0/1 beating vet 3 grens at mid range seems to me to be more an rng thing. Or the fights started at mid range?
The pop increase i dont think is neccecary.

The prts cant be fired on the move, has low rof and to my knowlidge have a hard time hitting inf. So its definitly a trade off in ai. Pgrens get shrecks wich do way more damage in an instant that why their ai is hiit harder.

I think that all the hate is directed at OKW being op while allied factions often get a free pass. The high winrate in the GCS2 was SU yet they haven't gotten any nerfs where both OKW and Ost are getting nerfed. I wonder if the KV8 beating Ost p4 is making it into the final build cuz Tightrope demonstrated a while ago that KV8 beats p4 at all ranges, lol. What a joke.

I don't think soviets are OP, they just cover all roles well, or rather have less holes in their faction design that can be easily exploited.

This just make the holes in other factions more obvious.

Also, nerf wehr flame-222 its disgusting.

The real actual issue with penals though, is not their combat performance. As someone has corrected stated, you can basically have 3 grens vs 2 penals (720 vs 600), in tier 1 and it balances out somewhat.
the problem i have, is with their utility.

The two elements that are too strong, are the extremely easy upgrade to AT vs light vehicles with their rifles, and the bigger issue - The satchel charge is far too strong.

The satchel one shots any squad squarely hit by it. and any building, or any squad inside a building, including caches. This effectively means penals, by their existence alone, DENY you the ability to cache/tech up fast enough to face the inevitable t70 with your own vehicles. You can try to hide and defend the caches sure, but this means you must never...ever...fall back...and that you concede the rest of the map. if you have to fallback, which any competant or evenly matched player can force eventually, then you WILL lose your cache. he only needs to move 1 squad and spend 30 muni to cause the same economic damage as a full squad wipe.

The presence of penals too, also shuts down the ability to be aggressive with light vehicles. people say "oh, but i cant use my satchel against a well microed light vehicle." and youre right. except....the mere threat of the satchel charge 1 shotting my halftrack or heavily damaging any vehicle with GUARANTEED engine damage, zones you out of certain locations dependant on terrain. This is also not ok. Imagine if panzerfausts, which are exclusively AT and dont have the huge aoe or versatility that a satchel does, had GUARANTEED engine damage and the same damage as a penals satchel. whats the justification? the range on the satchels isnt that different to a faust, and the muni difference is 5? Grens also dont get AT rifles to boot?

The thing that really pushed me over the edge with regards to the satchels, was when i got cheesed by a guy who, in tier 1, made 1 penal squad and a transport truck. drove to my base, and kept satchel charging the BASE BUNKERS. these base bunkers get one shot for the bargain price of 30 munitions. If i dont rebuild the bunkers, youre in for a base rape when you fallback, as he can commit to a combined arms push of your base. if i DO rebuild the bunkers, im spending 150/60, AND wasting my pioneer/grenadiers time to counter a 30 muni expense?

Penal battallions are just too versatile.

Same issue, I am actually ok with everything about the penals, BUT the satchel in the game. It should be removed and give them normal grenade and with ptrs upgrade the conscript at-grenade. This would tone their utility to more normal.

I wonder if the KV8 beating Ost p4 is making it into the final build cuz Tightrope demonstrated a while ago that KV8 beats p4 at all ranges, lol. What a joke.

A more expensive heavy tank beating an early medium tank? So unfair.
Anyway in the final notes it's getting +160HP vet instead of 0.8 damage modifier, and the reload buff has been reverted.

I think that all the hate is directed at OKW being op while allied factions often get a free pass. The high winrate in the GCS2 was SU yet they haven't gotten any nerfs where both OKW and Ost are getting nerfed. I wonder if the KV8 beating Ost p4 is making it into the final build cuz Tightrope demonstrated a while ago that KV8 beats p4 at all ranges, lol. What a joke.

RNG is RNG. 70 pen at max and 80 damage is hardly what you call a tank destroyer. That's less than a 50% chance to do 80 damage 80*8 is 640 so ~16 shots to kill. Consider that the churchill croc is having the same gun as a Cromwell with full damage on a much sturdier hull AND can shoot fire at the same time... All the new pen is going to do is allow a heavy tank that requires full teching (as in hits the field when normal tanks do) can defend itself. For price that's plenty reasonable

A more expensive heavy tank beating an early medium tank? So unfair.
Anyway in the final notes it's getting +160HP vet instead of 0.8 damage modifier, and the reload buff has been reverted.

What people seem to forget is that Ostheer where designed to play defensively until they could produce a PzIV and start pushing.

The changes so far have reduced the window of opportunity of the PzIV and made so that they now need to wait tech to T4 until they can start to push and even then their option are slowly being rerfed.

When a KV-8 hit the field, Ostheer are forced to produce Stugs to counter, forcing them to continue the defensive play.

PzIV should be strongest medium armor with enough window of opportunity to allow Ostheer some breathing space, the same way riflemen should be the top mainlines infantry for its time.

Else both faction will need a redesign.

What people seem to forget is that Ostheer where designed to play defensively until they could produce a PzIV and start pushing.

The changes so far have reduced the window of opportunity of the PzIV and made so that they now need to wait tech to T4 until they can start to push and even then their option are slowly being rerfed.

When a KV-8 hit the field, Ostheer are forced to produce Stugs to counter, forcing them to continue the defensive play.

PzIV should be strongest medium armor with enough window of opportunity to allow Ostheer some breathing space, the same way riflemen should be the top mainlines infantry for its time.

Else both faction will need a redesign.

p4 IS the strongest medium tank tho. hardest shell and highest pen means its mostly likely to win a fight with another medium (except the t34/85, which is a toss up slightly favoring the 85)
with the kv-8 were talking about a heavy tank with most of its points in durability. not a medium

p4 IS the strongest medium tank tho. hardest shell and highest pen means its mostly likely to win a fight with another medium (except the t34/85, which is a toss up slightly favoring the 85)
with the kv-8 were talking about a heavy tank with most of its points in durability. not a medium

PzIV has one of the lowest penetration.

With KV-8 you are talking about a Tank that obliterates ATG and AT infantry thus leaving stug as the only answer.

PzIV has one of the lowest penetration.

With KV-8 you are talking about a Tank that obliterates ATG and AT infantry thus leaving stug as the only answer.

P4 is not supposed to fight highly armored targets and allied meds its supposed to beat have lower armor, so that lowest penetration still means highest chance to pen.
You want to kill KVs, use PaKs and StuGs.

You are also wrong about stalling to P4, because ost goes on full offensive with T2 and FHT(or 444 if vs brits).

...
You want to kill KVs, use PaKs and StuGs.
...

That is incorrect, Paks lose terribly to KV-8s.

That is incorrect, Paks lose terribly to KV-8s.

So.... screen them and spot with StuG or P4 instead of moving them to the very frontline and trying to use their own sight to spot said KV?

So.... screen them and spot with StuG or P4 instead of moving them to the very frontline and trying to use their own sight to spot said KV?

Pls stop with your silly hypothetical scenarios where a single KV-8 is facing both a PzIV and Pak.

I have explained why a PzIV not being able to counter a KV-8 is problematic.

Pls stop with your silly hypothetical scenarios where a single KV-8 is facing both a PzIV and Pak.

I have explained why a PzIV not being able to counter a KV-8 is problematic.

So I guess you will have to live with that problem, becauase alternative was buffing flamer itself.

You stubbornly believe P4 should be capable of tackling literally any allied unit in the game depending purely on angle of approach, reality check - its not going to.

Use StuG, the proper unit that should be engaging KV-8.

So I guess you will have to live with that problem, becauase alternative was buffing flamer itself.

Actually they have buff the HP and vet ability that more than enough.

They should have instead lower the price and pop so that a cheaper than the KV-1.

You stubbornly believe P4 should be capable of tackling literally any allied unit in the game depending purely on angle of approach, reality check - its not going to.

Once more pls stop fixating on what I do or do not do.

I explained what the PzIV role should be, but since you seem unable to understand and you keep puting words in my mouth lets me try once more. PzIV should be the tool Ostheer have to start pushing.

On the other hand a PzIV should be able to win over an AI tank especially if it managed to flank it.

Use StuG, the proper unit that should be engaging KV-8.

Read my post again having to build Stugs to counter Kv-8s leave Ostheer with little AI and little offensive power forcing them to wait for T4 before they can start pushing.


That is my opinion, feel free to have you own.

While I don't agree with the exact points OP gave, I do agree that soviets seem to be over performing a bit, especially in larger team games.

Particularly, the self-spotting mortars thanks to flairs and penals seem to be the main issues I can think of. The former seems out of place, since indirect fire shouldn't be able to self spot, and the later seems to be entirely due to the early scaling of penals.

Once a soviet player gets two Vet 1 mortars, they are basically impossible to counter, since they can constantly self spot - it also makes getting your own mortars incredibly challenging, which means ost has basically no structure clearing abilities, save for the weaker flamer-pios.

As for penals, the main problem is that their vet 0/1 performance is far too high, meaning late-game losses aren't too much of a problem. I think their Vet 2/3 performance should stay about the same, as well as cost, but their current performance vs. vet 3 grens at medium range is just far too high at vet 0/1, trivializing late game engagements. An alternative to a direct debuff to this unit would be increasing its pop-cap, meaning that supporting 4+ squads as well as other units would become much harder.

An argument could also be made the the PTRS upgrade doesn't seem like a 'trade' in terms of AT vs. AI, but just an overall upgrade. IMO it should work more like the shrek upgrade for PGrens, where AI power is dramatically reduced for AT power.

Excuse me, sir!!! But, I have no, even a single idea of what you are talking about!!! I don't even know that there is anyone on earth will even consider that any allies faction is more overperforming than the German faction in team game in general.
As a player who used to be ranked top ten in 4v4(allies mainly, axis top 50(during the allies op patch period just a few months ago), I refuse to keep playing axis because it is too boring.). Let me introduce you how ridiculous this game mode is.
1st. I have never played any game(regardless TBS, RTS, or FPS) that has any faction that will guarantee to win if the game past 25 or 30 mins. In this game, I achieve the dream. The only strategy I have and the only one I need to have to play axis is to hold my line for 25 mins. After that period, regardless of how good my opponents performed, my team will always turn the game around and win the game.
2nd. The ridiculous resources flow of axis factions compares to allies. If you have ever watched any replay, you will just realize how much more resources the axis have compared to the allies after the army is completely built up. I am talking about 500 more MP, 200 more Ammo, and 100 more Fuel.
3rd. The stupid strategy of completely lock down a part of the territory. Try this, one JT or elephant, plus 3 bunkers. Blame yourself if your opponents actually break through your line.

If you ever consider any allies support weapons or infantries squad are better than the Germans' in the first period of a game, especially 5~20 mins, please do me a favor and understand it. It is the only period that allies could win a game. Besides that period, there is hardly any chance for them to win a game.