Soviets are OP

Well, I wouldn't say that Riflemen vet bonuses are bad in comparison to Penals. They get better RA (and start with better RA too), can have AT-snare from vet while having option to still be completely AI unit (double bars).

They have more EFH since they start with 6 entities and they also get the vet 1 ability. Compare their vet bonuses with the ones Paratroopers get (they start with same DPS long range) and you will see that they are superior.

My original point stands, "many Soviet units have superior vet bonuses."

Finally riflemen should not be the benchmark, the unit was designed to be OP to carry the faction. Unfortunately other starting infantry have become stronger.

And conscripts vet was buffed/reworked only recently (depends on how long ago you meant saying "older days" though).

PPsh conscript not only get some of the highest RA accuracy bonus and a damage reduction ability they also get of the highest accuracy bonuses x154 in total, a weapon upgrade plus a CD buff.

Basically, cons are purely defensive/support unit,
penals are damage dealers and survive long enough purely because of high total HP,
riflemen are all-rounder with different options for upgrades which can result in high AI efficiency too while having good RA.

Penal get received accuracy at vet 1 via ability and at vet 3. Their DPS bonus are probably the highest among all infantry while they start with the same far DPS as Paratroopers a 380 CP3 unit.

At vet 3 Penal PTRS are superior AI than vanilla riflemen almost at all ranges, Penals vet 3 probably beat BAR vet 3 riflemen.

I still don't completely agree that the AT satchel is free. The normal satchel is, but not the AT satchel as it does require an thing to get. Like the old defensive stance, wasn't really free because it needed a certain upgrade to get. Smoke on volks requires a special upgrade. The upgrades themselves are free, but since the abilities are tied to the upgrade I wouldn't say they are free if that makes sense.

As always I'll shamelessly plug my penal patch idea:
Start cheaper (270mp was a nice point before) and give them mosins (keep in mind they still have epic aggressive vet that will set them aside from cons)
Upgrade to SVTs or PTRS not both. Maybe tie the PTRS upgrade to the AT nade tech for the sake of needing to plan ahead.

Just my two cents, the Soviets are really good, but only if you use penals. Conscripts require a huge amount of skill to use properly. I suggest buffing cons and shocks, in order to make more strategies viable.

... I suggest buffing cons and shocks, in order to make more strategies viable.

The buffing has gone around for far too long if you ask me, its time to start nerfing the counterparts.

The buffing has gone around for far too long if you ask me, its time to start nerfing the counterparts.

Agreed, nerf volks and lmg grens then, so cons can stand up to them without doctrine.

25 fuel for AT nade is criminal. That's my main gripe tbh.

Agreed, nerf volks and lmg grens then, so cons can stand up to them without doctrine.

Together with penals and Guards.

Together with penals and Guards.

Of course. But we need to know where to start... Where DO we start? I think an okw overhaul that allows pressure to be taken off volks in necessary, once volks stop operating above cost cons might not need any changes (well, that vet 3 rec acc is a bit much) and penals can be relieved.
Younwould probably know better than I, is it possible to actually put a hard cap on infantry? If so capping guards at say 2 and bumping their cost up could be an interesting change. I know relic didn't like the idea of limiting player choice but we won't ever have balance if certain things are not limited. Limiting heavy tanks to 1 was probably one of the best changes made in the history of the game for variety and allowing them to actually be something special instead of over nerfed yet necessary sinks. Soviet elite infantry could be that as well as long as both penals and cons can be viable.

Maybe making Soviet elites unacceptable for merge and having a decent reinforcement too so that they bleed properly would be good too.

Of course. But we need to know where to start... Where DO we start?...

I would try the following:
Redesign Penals to be good at only 1 range.
Nerf Guards either as CP 2 mediocre multi-role unit or as CP 3 "elite" unit
Redesign Volks to be good at only 1 range.

Riflemen should be top dog for their time frame.

Reduce the AI of shreck Pg and their cost spawning with 2 ST+ 2 K98 reduce cost so that they can soft counter allied elite infantry.

as for timing:
Increase window of opportunity of armored cars reduce their shock value, introduce 221 as a soft counter armored cars.

Increase window of opportunity of light tanks reduce their shock values, redesign ostwind as counter to light tanks.

Increase the window of opportunity of Medium tanks.

Delay premium mediums, Heavy TD, Super heavy tanks.

I would try the following:
Redesign Penals to be good at only 1 range.
Nerf Guards either as CP 2 mediocre multi-role unit or as CP 3 "elite" unit
Redesign Volks to be good at only 1 range.

Riflemen should be top dog for their time frame.

Reduce the AI of shreck Pg and their cost spawning with 2 ST+ 2 K98 reduce cost so that they can soft counter allied elite infantry.

as for timing:
Increase window of opportunity of armored cars reduce their shock value, introduce 221 as a soft counter armored cars.

Increase window of opportunity of light tanks reduce their shock values, redesign ostwind as counter to light tanks.

Increase the window of opportunity of Medium tanks.

Delay premium mediums, Heavy TD, Super heavy tanks.

If Riflemen become better early game they'd need their monster vet to get toned down.

Agreed that Volks, Penals, and Guards could use a redesign. If Penals lose PTRS and Guards come out at CP3 Soviet could really struggle vs light vehicle rushes though.

Ostwind being able to actually handle light tanks would make it more useable. Centaur rips through Puma/Luchs, but Ostwind can barely scratch the T70 or Stuart.

Heavy tanks come out way too soon in 1v1. They often come out shortly after the first medium.

If Riflemen become better early game they'd need their monster vet to get toned down.

Agreed that Volks, Penals, and Guards could use a redesign. If Penals lose PTRS and Guards come out at CP3 Soviet could really struggle vs light vehicle rushes though.

Ostwind being able to actually handle light tanks would make it more useable. Centaur rips through Puma/Luchs, but Ostwind can barely scratch the T70 or Stuart.

Heavy tanks come out way too soon in 1v1. They often come out shortly after the first medium.

Penals don't need to LOSE their PTRS just not transition from monster AI to defensive AT. I like the idea of having at in t1 but penals being practically elite troops is a bad transition. Choice is what's needed. If you have to pick between an AI and AT upgrade then getting caught with your pants around your knees is your fault not the fault of a poorly designed tier.

..If Penals lose PTRS and Guards come out at CP3 Soviet could really struggle vs light vehicle rushes though.
...

Mostly from OKW who would might need rebalanced.

One has to first to decide power level of ostheer, then balance allied faction vs Ostheer and then balance OKW vs Soviet.

In the case of OKW light being to strong vs T1 soviet start one could redesign M42 ATG as transition light tank counter and make it available in T1.

Just my two cents, the Soviets are really good, but only if you use penals. Conscripts require a huge amount of skill to use properly. I suggest buffing cons and shocks, in order to make more strategies viable.

The thing about cons spam is that its unviable against OKW, but is doable against OST. So even if you wanted to con spam it would be dependent on your opponent being an OST player and not an OKW player.


Going Cons into OKW is asking to lose in 10 minutes imo.

Not really in my opinion. Cons are still really good if supported by guards. PPSH 41s are the thing that makes them relevant in my opinion against OKW. The thing is that cons require more skill to use than penals, they die faster, there are more of them, and they have more abilities.

Not really in my opinion. Cons are still really good if supported by guards. PPSH 41s are the thing that makes them relevant in my opinion against OKW. The thing is that cons require more skill to use than penals, they die faster, there are more of them, and they have more abilities.

The problem is that you need a doctrinal ability to make them good and you don't even get to outnumber your enemy with them. They have alot of models sure but grens match them at 240mp being slightly delayed by the 80mp 10 fuel (molotov tech price as well as Ost t1) and for a whopping 10mp more okw can build volks and need to dedicate nothing more to them. For how trash cons are they almost shouldn't have ANY side techs, or certainly not be the same price as better infantry that doesn't have any themselves.

Building tier could reduce Cons initial price, like -10 manpower per building. They wouldn't be spammable early game but more affordable to reemplace as the game goes on.

For context, i was top 300 ostheer - but im now on a big losing streak against soviets, prompting this post.
Im not sure why people are trying to claim that conscripts underperform against axis infantry. as a mainly Wehr player, i dont find that my grens roll over conscripts easily in tier 1, the fight is roughly 50/50 and is largely decided by cover and bullet rng....which is exactly as it should be.

you can argue that standard grens scale better into the late game with upgrades....but then you take a look at PPSH and the abominations that become terminator conscripts - if you want to specialise in conscripts that is.


the pacing for soviet vs wehr is supposed to be that soviets have a slight edge in the early game, and thats fine. Whats NOT fine - is penal battalions. And im not sure why someone would even try to argue the case on that.
In the last 5 days, ive played something close to 25 soviets, 4 brits, and approx 7-8 usf. The soviets are heavily over-represented due to their having a relatively low skill cap on early-mid dominance.

The real actual issue with penals though, is not their combat performance. As someone has corrected stated, you can basically have 3 grens vs 2 penals (720 vs 600), in tier 1 and it balances out somewhat.
the problem i have, is with their utility.

The two elements that are too strong, are the extremely easy upgrade to AT vs light vehicles with their rifles, and the bigger issue - The satchel charge is far too strong.

The satchel one shots any squad squarely hit by it. and any building, or any squad inside a building, including caches. This effectively means penals, by their existence alone, DENY you the ability to cache/tech up fast enough to face the inevitable t70 with your own vehicles. You can try to hide and defend the caches sure, but this means you must never...ever...fall back...and that you concede the rest of the map. if you have to fallback, which any competant or evenly matched player can force eventually, then you WILL lose your cache. he only needs to move 1 squad and spend 30 muni to cause the same economic damage as a full squad wipe.

The presence of penals too, also shuts down the ability to be aggressive with light vehicles. people say "oh, but i cant use my satchel against a well microed light vehicle." and youre right. except....the mere threat of the satchel charge 1 shotting my halftrack or heavily damaging any vehicle with GUARANTEED engine damage, zones you out of certain locations dependant on terrain. This is also not ok. Imagine if panzerfausts, which are exclusively AT and dont have the huge aoe or versatility that a satchel does, had GUARANTEED engine damage and the same damage as a penals satchel. whats the justification? the range on the satchels isnt that different to a faust, and the muni difference is 5? Grens also dont get AT rifles to boot?

The thing that really pushed me over the edge with regards to the satchels, was when i got cheesed by a guy who, in tier 1, made 1 penal squad and a transport truck. drove to my base, and kept satchel charging the BASE BUNKERS. these base bunkers get one shot for the bargain price of 30 munitions. If i dont rebuild the bunkers, youre in for a base rape when you fallback, as he can commit to a combined arms push of your base. if i DO rebuild the bunkers, im spending 150/60, AND wasting my pioneer/grenadiers time to counter a 30 muni expense?

Penal battallions are just too versatile.

Building tier could reduce Cons initial price, like -10 manpower per building. They wouldn't be spammable early game but more affordable to reemplace as the game goes on.

I've suggested something similar in the past. They don't need a weapon upgrade but they need some way to improve cost effectiveness like other factions can. Cons being lesser troops but capable of an almost global scaling I think is perfect for thir intended role and if they get cheaper (knock 1mp off their reinforcement per tier too if you ask me) they can lose their stupid strong massive RA buff at vet 3 which also makes ppshs less OP...

Also @smashface I agree penals are problematic but they are unfortunately necessary as long as cons are hopelessly out matched and outscalled by all infantry that 50% of the factions Soviet will face can field.
And iirc the satchel is 45mu not 30. And the satchel has a 3 second fuse and nearly point blank range, you shouldn't be losing squads to it seeing as you can hop in and out faster than Chinese food goes through you.

I've suggested something similar in the past. They don't need a weapon upgrade but they need some way to improve cost effectiveness like other factions can. Cons being lesser troops but capable of an almost global scaling I think is perfect for thir intended role and if they get cheaper (knock 1mp off their reinforcement per tier too if you ask me) they can lose their stupid strong massive RA buff at vet 3 which also makes ppshs less OP...

Also @smashface I agree penals are problematic but they are unfortunately necessary as long as cons are hopelessly out matched and outscalled by all infantry that 50% of the factions Soviet will face can field.
And iirc the satchel is 45mu not 30. And the satchel has a 3 second fuse and nearly point blank range, you shouldn't be losing squads to it seeing as you can hop in and out faster than Chinese food goes through you.

depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot.

the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals.

depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot.

the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals.

T34 85 kv1 require tier 4 to be build they are not callins any more for a while now.

Satchel has a quite long timer and reletive short range. Most squads have time to get out or avoid them. And most building have two doors use the other door. Only mg,s suffer the brunt because the must pack up the gun.