"balancing" discussions are ALL pointless

I've said this many times. If Relic/balance team is going to use GCS or other tournament results to dictate which factions that are going to be buffed and which to be nerfed, why doesn't Relic/bal team simply ask the tournament players how to balance the game???!!!!! It was the tournament players that brought about the results that you're basing balancing decisions on, why not ask the players who created the results what to do to improve balance because the people that best understand why the results are like this ARE THE PROS THEMSELVES? Why is Relic/bal team asking randoms on the forums how to balance based on a tournament in which they did not participate in?

The solution is clear
1) Either heed the GCS results and ask the tournament players how to balance the game. This forum might as well close down the balance section of the website because the thoughts of the lower 99% don't matter and hence if you wanna get good, watch the pros and copy their op build orders, cheese tactics, and game mechanic abuse they may be exploiting. There will be absolutely ZERO room for creativity. Play meta OR LOSE.
2) Or start supporting coh2chart.com again with updated winrate data and let everyone know how the average and above avg players are performing and base balance off of those results. GCS will be hosted merely for hype purposes.


If u don't want to hear my reasoning this is all u need to read. Otherwise, my rant is below.


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For example USF/UKF were underrepresented and performed badly. Ask the tournament players why that was. Ask why they were afraid of using those factions, why they're underpowered, which units to change, how to change them (just a point in the right direction is enough, the balance team could iron out the details.) They could've answered these questions in five minutes after the tournament. Didn't they all fly to Manchester to compete in the tournament?

Because now you have threads like the one accusing the flamer HT of being op because HelpingHans had the balls to build TWO of them. Tell me, have you seen a player in automatch that has the skills to micro 2 of the hands-down hardest to micro 5min lights in the game plus a lot of squishy ostruppen? It's good to see that some people realize that just because a unit was used to great effect in the tournament doesn't mean it's op. If you have any experience with the flame HT, you'd know that attack move and selecting a unit to attack doesn't work as the brakes on the HT are quite poor and when the HT start spewing flames, it's already in snare range. It's the only light vehicle that doesn't stop at max range with an attack move or select attack. This unit was already nerfed THREE TIMES and apparently that's still not enough for some. And of course there are more of nerf axis threads that nerf the wrong units.

It seems the standards for nerfing and buffing are quite different when it comes to axis and allied factions. It seems that the suggestions regarding axis factions fall on deaf ears many of the times. For example, stormtroopers, despite the polls showing the majority of players wish to keep the stg upgrade as an option, the bal team have decided to ignore the poll and as if the mp40 nerf wasn't harsh enough, we're going to force you to upgrade for them while commandos get them immediately. I wouldn't be against this kind of authoritarianism from top 100 bal team members if it was CONSISTENT. Meanwhile a patch or two back one or two scrubs on the forum didn't know how to deal with Tiger Ace and KT and bam! both units get hit with a nerf bat. Why couldn't the balance team just ignore them like they ignored the stormtrooper poll? I recall there wasn't even that many people complaining about the prenerfed TA and KT. Not surprisingly, this patch is rebuffing the KT because it is clear the bal team overnerfed it. And of course while the balance team is busy slapping on "mark target" on the wc51, they say that they're not sure what to do with the stormtroopers, in fact it turns out they did, instead of correcting their mistakes, they further nerfed them.

I'm gonna further explain WHY the storms suck. I've done ample testing and watched players like Imperial Dane use them. They're damn good when they get into point blank but getting there is the problem. Sprint is only on one doc, smoke only works defensively (when u want to force enemy to close in) or only offensively vs mgs. Ambushing is unreliable as u depend on the enemy to bump into u which may or may not happen. Mp40s make tactical advance SO MUCH WORSE. You need to use the ability point blank. It's only great vs support weapons, ie. units that can't shoot back or weak 200mp squads. I find if a unit immediately retreats after being focused down with the ability, the dps from the storms drops off almost instantly. With the stg upgrade, the midrange dps with tac adv is still substantial but now with mp40s it's laughable. It's so easy to counter tac adv now, either just retreat, lob a nade or simply stand your ground if your squad is well equipped too to feast off the RA penalty. The whole point of changing hte storms was that they overlapped too much with pgrens. What kind of reason is that?! I'd say they were better pgrens. Most would agree in the poll that the stgs were a bit pricey and most importantly nobody said they're op. DON'T FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKE. Nobody asked for drastic changes to storms ffs. My solution is that if u have to keep mp40s then change tac adv so that either the mp40s get the dps profile of pgren stgs at midrange while keeping the same dps of the mp40s at short OR removing movement & RA penalty.

Hey, remember that balance thread about how bad stormtrooper mp40s were? I wonder who wrote that.

Also, stormtroopers are wayyyyyyyy better now so I don’t know why you’re complaining. Sure, they actually take more micro now but commando-style camo is so freeing and lets you do so much more with the unit. Also you don’t have to spend 100 muni on mp40s.

Also, gotta point out the irony of citing a previous balance thread poll in a thread called “balancing discussions are all pointless”

Hey, remember that balance thread about how bad stormtrooper mp40s were? I wonder who wrote that.

Also, stormtroopers are wayyyyyyyy better now so I don’t know why you’re complaining. Sure, they actually take more micro now but commando-style camo is so freeing and lets you do so much more with the unit. Also you don’t have to spend 100 muni on mp40s.

Also, gotta point out the irony of citing a previous balance thread poll in a thread called “balancing discussions are all pointless”

I had a match with you where I've beaten u handily. It seems you were triggered that I posted the replay on the forums. You just play USF/UKF 1v1. You wouldn't know how storms are like especially when u think thompson paras are UP. Stg storms are inferior to thompson paras, now with mp40s, they're even worse. Just prove to me how they're wayyyyyyyyyy better. I've provided facts, you've provided nothing but your "feelings" (as usual).

Yes, balance discussion ARE pointless IF there is no consistency. If the balance team gives the cold shoulder to both allied AND axis noobs on the forums, I'd be happy but like I said, the TA and KT were nerfed because the bal team DID listen to allied noobs but axis players are ignored.

What patch is doing what rebuffing to the King Tiger?

I'm a firm believer that interacting with the coh2 community is for the good of the game.

I do not care if my posts are relevant towards the balancing work, as long as I help to provide towards a good friendly and fun discussion with good banter I'd say all is good. I sure enjoy engaging with the crowd around here. There's always a good chat happening, great threads to read and I've made some good friends too. There's countless events and streams too. What's more to demand?

If I went on I'd probably discuss the utilitarian benefits of gaming communities against your perceived general pointlessness of it but I think that's a bit off topic..

Edit: or am I missing the idea of your thread? You discuss different interrelated perspectives, even the idea that there's some big weird balance conspiracy (?). Or are you suggesting to stop people discussing balancing?

The state of ballance in coh2 is very good for quite a long time now. When I say good, I mean the differences are so small, that it is impossible to gather enough data to say what needs changing. That is why any further ballance patches are pretty much a random walk into the direction that looks right based of statistics taken from way too little set of observations. In effect there isn't really a space for improvement in ballance departent, only for change. And the ballance guidance of decisions means the direction of that change is random.

That is because the ballance is too good to affect anybody apart from top of the top. The rest is taken care of by matchmaker. And even if the number of players is so low the matchmaking looks completely random, it is still not a source for ballance discussion, as who wins the matches is 100% dependand on that huge skill gap between the players.

Now, there are two reasons why we still have ballance patches. First is that most people don't know or forget about what I said in preceding paragraphs. Especially the pros who sometimes call for imbalance without having a second thought that a new strategy is needed to counter current meta, not new patch.

The other reason is that players of the wider top, lets say top 100, play a lot of matches and simply get bored with meta and repetitive gameplay and support ballance patches not to improve ballance but just to shake up the meta. The problem here is that this is very short-sighted. The reason why the game becomes boring and reperitive are that the game mechanics became too shallow and maps too similar over time. Mind that all of this has been done for ballance. In effect, a ballance patch often shakes the meta and makes the game more fun for a while, but very shortly the same people will ask for another patch to shake things up. What is really needed is a patch that would restore some of the depth and variety into the game. And we need it soon, as there are not going to be any new ballance shaking patches once relic decides to leave the game behind. If it is to live on, it has to be deep enough for the meta to evolve without any patches.

... If it is to live on, it has to be deep enough for the meta to evolve without any patches.

The problem with patches is that seem to focus on specific unit offering easy solution like increasing DPS.

Thing like vet bonuses, vet abilities, XP values, units role, commanders themes, design of commander have not been looked in ages.

I'm gonna further explain WHY the storms suck. I've done ample testing and watched players like Imperial Dane use them. They're damn good when they get into point blank but getting there is the problem. Sprint is only on one doc, smoke only works defensively (when u want to force enemy to close in) or only offensively vs mgs. Ambushing is unreliable as u depend on the enemy to bump into u which may or may not happen. Mp40s make tactical advance SO MUCH WORSE. You need to use the ability point blank. It's only great vs support weapons, ie. units that can't shoot back or weak 200mp squads. I find if a unit immediately retreats after being focused down with the ability, the dps from the storms drops off almost instantly. With the stg upgrade, the midrange dps with tac adv is still substantial but now with mp40s it's laughable. It's so easy to counter tac adv now, either just retreat, lob a nade or simply stand your ground if your squad is well equipped too to feast off the RA penalty. The whole point of changing hte storms was that they overlapped too much with pgrens. What kind of reason is that?! I'd say they were better pgrens. Most would agree in the poll that the stgs were a bit pricey and most importantly nobody said they're op. DON'T FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKE. Nobody asked for drastic changes to storms ffs. My solution is that if u have to keep mp40s then change tac adv so that either the mp40s get the dps profile of pgren stgs at midrange while keeping the same dps of the mp40s at short OR removing movement & RA penalty.

the stormtrooper is a rearline "commando" and infiltration unit... it should be used in ambushes and harassment not as frontline units as it is today... the partisan used to be used as a shock troop back in the day in a very similar way to the stormtrooper before the change and alot of wehraboo babies screamed for nerfs... and guess what it was rightfully nerfed!

i really dont understand axis hypocrisy of wanting to nerf a broken allied unit yet not liking a nerf for the exact same reason against an equally broken axis unit... exact same situation with the teller mine argument

the stormtrooper is a rearline "commando" and infiltration unit... it should be used in ambushes and harassment not as frontline units as it is today... the partisan used to be used as a shock troop back in the day in a very similar way to the stormtrooper before the change and alot of wehraboo babies screamed for nerfs... and guess what it was rightfully nerfed!

i really dont understand axis hypocrisy of wanting to nerf a broken allied unit yet not liking a nerf for the exact same reason against an equally broken axis unit... exact same situation with the teller mine argument

I am sorry I have to point out this but I think that the problem according to you is that Relic and the mod listen to "wehraboo" instead of listening to "allied fanboys".

That approach is completely flawed in so many way that I will not even start explaining why.

The idea that AI partisan and Storm troopers are used the same way is also completely flawed. Actually in live partisan are more cost efficient than Storm troopers especially as infiltration unit.

I would be nice if we could elevate the debate above the level of "wehraboo" and "allied fanboys", the forum would be a much better place is these words where not used again.

I am sorry I have to point out this but I think that the problem according to you is that Relic and the mod listen to "wehraboo" instead of listening to "allied fanboys".

That approach is completely flawed in so many way that I will not even start explaining why.

The idea that AI partisan and Storm troopers are used the same way is also completely flawed. Actually in live partisan are more cost efficient than Storm troopers especially as infiltration unit.

I would be nice if we could elevate the debate above the level of "wehraboo" and "allied fanboys", the forum would be a much better place is these words where not used again.

considering the extremely low winrates of USF and UKF? yeah id say theres something wrong there... i dont wish relic were to listen to allied fanboys... but relic shouldnt listen to wehraboos aswell... they should listen to those who play all factions with little bias as to any faction...

anyways
ai partisans are really effective when used vs wehr... able to quickly respond to an mg42 and/or eliminate a sniper or demolish dat squad annoying your main force really quickly... however are completely useless against OKW

storms on the other hand are not only good infiltrators vs T2 Sov builds USF (major/ambulance grenadier) UKF (same argument as ostheer) but also effective mainline infantry when added to the lmg grenblob... though even that is ineffective vs the powerful T1 sov build... anyhoo this patch reduces storms to ambush gameplay just like the AI partisan...

considering the extremely low winrates of USF and UKF? yeah id say theres something wrong there... i dont wish relic were to listen to allied fanboys... but relic shouldnt listen to wehraboos aswell... they should listen to those who play all factions with little bias as to any faction...

anyways
ai partisans are really effective when used vs wehr... able to quickly respond to an mg42 and/or eliminate a sniper or demolish dat squad annoying your main force really quickly... however are completely useless against OKW

storms on the other hand are not only good infiltrators vs T2 Sov builds USF (major/ambulance grenadier) UKF (same argument as ostheer) but also effective mainline infantry when added to the lmg grenblob... though even that is ineffective vs the powerful T1 sov build... anyhoo this patch reduces storms to ambush gameplay just like the AI partisan...

PLS stop talking about "wehraboos" or "allied fanboys" it simply derail balance threads.

Storm troopers spawn with K98 and have zero shock value, they need to upgrade with a weapon before they become useful.

Partisan are the only infiltration unit not paying a premium for being able to spawn from ambient building.

If you compare the 2 Partisna are far more cost effective infiltration units.

Partisan are the only infiltration unit not paying a premium for being able to spawn from ambient building.

If you compare the 2 Partisna are far more cost effective infiltration units.

Contrary to partisans, storms are going to remain useful for longer then 20 seconds after spawn as partisans have almost completely no value once initially used.

Contrary to partisans, storms are going to remain useful for longer then 20 seconds after spawn as partisans have almost completely no value once initially used.

Cp experience lol

Sturms should have ther STG's back ther far more effective as unit with them. Its funny how all the people saying mp40's are better are all mainly allied players

Sturms should have ther STG's back ther far more effective as unit with them. Its funny how all the people saying mp40's are better are all mainly allied players

can we give partisans DPs aswell?

Sturms should have ther STG's back ther far more effective as unit with them. Its funny how all the people saying mp40's are better are all mainly allied players

Its funny how all the people saying they aren't, never played balance mod.

Jump back to quoted post30 Sep 2018, 12:01 PMVipper

Partisan are the only infiltration unit not paying a premium for being able to spawn from ambient building.

If you compare the 2 Partisna are far more cost effective infiltration units.

Contrary to partisans, storms are going to remain useful for longer then 20 seconds after spawn as partisans have almost completely no value once initially used.

Dear katitof if you are going to quote me and respond pls respond to something relevant to what I have posted.

I have clearly claimed that Partisan are more cost effective as an infiltration unit (and explained why which you failed to quote) and the performance of the an infiltration past 20 secs are only slightly relevant.

The fact that you think Partisan are useless past 20 sec is probably because you have not found a use for them, so allow me to help you with potential uses.

Go to cover, turn hold fire on and ambush enemy infantry with an elite grenade. Plant a mine before to maximize effect.

Use them to build wire and plant mines instead of using CE.

Use them cloaked with hold fire to spot for you long range weapon like HMG, ATG and mortars.

I hope you find this post useful.

Your "pros" have absolutely zero understanding of how the game works apart from stats and how to abuse them, which is also fairly evident from how little they have posted in the commander revamp feedback topic as well.

And lastly, the reasons why UKF and USF are underperforming and are less picked are fairly obvious in their design flaws and don't require an APM God computer like multitasker to acknowledge. For one reason or another tho Relic only wants to address around 50% of the UKF's weakness and that's about it.

Your "pros" have absolutely zero understanding of how the game works apart from stats and how to abuse them, which is also fairly evident from how little they have posted in the commander revamp feedback topic as well.

And lastly, the reasons why UKF and USF are underperforming and are less picked are fairly obvious in their design flaws and don't require an APM God computer like multitasker to acknowledge. For one reason or another tho Relic only wants to address around 50% of the UKF's weakness and that's about it.

#mobilemortarforUKF

Usf and Uk buffs are coming
I think this is what the op is afraid of.