Eastern Front Armies Revamp

So with OkW, the vet levels (like volks vet 1)that was not mentioned are unchanged and the ones that were wont have their current bonuses? For example; Volks vet wont have their received accuracy at vet 3 but instead gain it at vet 5 and their healing will be at vet 4. If this is the case what would they have at vet 3?

Just a little confused. Like the tech cost change through, obers and jagpanzer can come earlier.

I can't find any better way to describe the veterancy changes rather what is written on the frontpage. Therefore, let's walk through an example. Let's take Volks.

Volks veterancy in the live version is:
- 10% received accuracy
- +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
- Passive Healing, -10% received accuracy
- +20% sight range, +15% accuracy
- -20% cooldown

The changes we did to Volks veterancy are:
- Vet2 bonus: increased sight in garrisons or cover
- Vet4 bonus: Medical kits heals at 2HP/sec passively
- Vet5 (old Vet3) RA improved from 0.9 to 0.86

This means:
- We take Volks Vet1, Vet2 and Vet3 and make them the new Vet1, Vet3 and Vet5:

- 10% received accuracy
- ?
- +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
- ?
- Passive Healing, -10% received accuracy

We modify the Vet5 bonus (We forgot to mention that passive healing was removed from that vet bonus as well, since it was moved to Vet4):

- 10% received accuracy
- ?
- +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
- ?
- -14% received accuracy

Then, we add the new Vet2 bonus and the Vet4 bonus that make the unit unique.

We modify the Vet5 bonus:

- 10% received accuracy
- Vet2 bonus: increased sight in garrisons or cover
- +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
- Vet4 bonus: Medical kits heals at 2HP/sec passively
- -14% received accuracy

Finally we adjust veterancy thresholds.

Veterancy threshold for Volks in live are 480/960/1920/2400/3120
(notice how ridiculously close Vet4/Vet5 are to Vet3; this is the same for all OKW units, which is why Vet4/Vet5 feel like they always snowball)

Therefore, we adjust them to: 480/720/960/1440/1920

Now it takes less time for Volks to get to Vet5. It also takes considerably less time to get to their Vet2/Vet4 flavour bonuses. This is the same for all OKW squads.

I don't like this idea:
MedHQ
- Forward retreat point completely removed
Better give FRP to wermaht & sov.

You're supposed to use the fact that OKW infantry now get their flavor bonuses even earlier (e.g., passive sprint, passive healing), and also reinforce faster (e.g., Obers, Sturmpios). You can start reinforcing in base, and run to the med-hq to complete reinforcing/healing.

Then, with the Vet2/Vet4 bonuses you can retain or deny field presence to the other armies.

Obersoldaten
- Cost from 400 to 340
- Population from 10 to 9
- Upgrades from 60 to 80 munitions (both LMG and STG)
- Reinforce time to 9 from 12.5. Build time to 36 from 50.

Fallschirmjäger
- Have stationary pathfinder-like camouflage at Vet 0
- Population from 8 to 9
- Call-in manpower cost reduced from 440 to 340

All other proposal seem not so bad.

I know it's unclear from the notes. However if you try to follow the procedure outlined above, Falls and Obers lost some of the passive combat bonuses they used to receive (essentially replaced).

You're supposed to use the fact that OKW infantry now get their flavor bonuses even earlier (e.g., passive sprint, passive healing), and also reinforce faster (e.g., Obers, Sturmpios). You can start reinforcing in base, and run to the med-hq to complete reinforcing/healing.

It's no about OKW. It's about large maps. Where retreat to base and return back to the battlefield takes a lot of time. If you have FRP you play with more comfort than without FRP.

you dont like FRP ? ok then make a mod without FTP and play it but you cant remove FRP from the game, FRP is a main feature for western front armies + you cant remove anything from the game, you can just apply nerfs or buffs. removing FRP from OKW, UKF and USF is 100% unacceptable.

FRPs are cancer and give too much for too little(especially OKW). Its removal is a great change. Soviets and Ostheer have had to deal with it since day one, so I don't see why any of the post efa armies deserve it, since nothing hinders them like vcoh brit movement in neutral/hostile territory.

Imo some of the changes in OKW are in the wrong direction:

OKW trucks. The changes to OKW that make lose tech options when they lose trucks make very little sense. It will force OKW to place trucks inside the base sectors.

VG main issues are not dealt with. Those are:
1) The St44 upgrade making them too potent at all ranges. Weapon upgrades should increase the performance of the unit at all ranges all the time.

2) Ability to build cover. VG are too strong as unit to be able to create green cover.

3) Incendiary grenade. This type of weapon should not be available to mainline infantry.

Imo some of the changes in OKW are in the wrong direction:

OKW trucks. The changes to OKW that make lose tech options when they lose trucks make very little sense. It will force OKW to place trucks inside the base sectors.

The only change we've done with respect to trucks is the T4 truck.

T4 costs considerably less to setup. Thus, even if you lose your truck, you can still setup a new one and still get access to Obers (which you will need post-Volks-nerfs) and JP4 (which you will also need, given that you are now on the defensive after being pushed off).

If you had previously researched the T4 assault group upgrade, you can also, still, skip rebuilding T4 and go for a King Tiger.

Losing access to the revamped Panther and the revamped P4 are part of the risk-reward deal; if you place your T4 too greedily and lose it, you have to play defensively while you recover.

The changes to T4 pricing are so that other recovery options become available, rather than just King Tiger.

VG main issues are not dealt with. Those are:
1) The St44 upgrade making them too potent at all ranges. Weapon upgrades should increase the performance of the unit at all ranges all the time.

2) Ability to build cover. VG are too strong as unit to be able to create green cover.

3) Incendiary grenade. This type of weapon should not be available to mainline infantry.

Is this still your impression after using Volks in the mod?

I can't find any better way to describe the veterancy changes rather what is written on the frontpage. Therefore, let's walk through an example. Let's take Volks.

Volks veterancy in the live version is:
- 10% received accuracy
- +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
- Passive Healing, -10% received accuracy
- +20% sight range, +15% accuracy
- -20% cooldown

The changes we did to Volks veterancy are:
- Vet2 bonus: increased sight in garrisons or cover
- Vet4 bonus: Medical kits heals at 2HP/sec passively
- Vet5 (old Vet3) RA improved from 0.9 to 0.86

This means:
- We take Volks Vet1, Vet2 and Vet3 and make them the new Vet1, Vet3 and Vet5:



We modify the Vet5 bonus (We forgot to mention that passive healing was removed from that vet bonus as well, since it was moved to Vet4):


Then, we add the new Vet2 bonus and the Vet4 bonus that make the unit unique.

We modify the Vet5 bonus:


Finally we adjust veterancy thresholds.

Veterancy threshold for Volks in live are 480/960/1920/2400/3120
(notice how ridiculously close Vet4/Vet5 are to Vet3; this is the same for all OKW units, which is why Vet4/Vet5 feel like they always snowball)

Therefore, we adjust them to: 480/720/960/1440/1920

Now it takes less time for Volks to get to Vet5. It also takes considerably less time to get to their Vet2/Vet4 flavour bonuses. This is the same for all OKW squads.

Somehow I missed the new vet structure. The reason I used volks as example was because of the passive healing being moved to vet 4 and not being mentioned being removed from vet 3.

Anyway, thanks for the example and ironing things out more.

Why not just make reinforcement cost 33% higher for frp. Why just remove it from the game all together. Why keep trying to make all factions the same.

Because retreating is key mechanic in CoH.
Having FRP interferes with that. For example, it heavily reduces effect of suppression units.

You don't have to invest in scouting too as you can just press T and come back in 1 minute if you've found yourself in unpleasant situation.

FRPs need to be either removed or included for all factions. An argument can be made that armies are different etc, but I simply do not see anything that EFAs have which could possibly compensate for a FRP, especially on larger maps in teamgames.

If FRP has to remain ingame for OKW, one possibility is instead of braindead research, to have it an activated ability on the medic truck: pay 100 ammo to get 1 minute of Forward Retreat functionality on the truck.

That way it can't be spammed but it can be set up along with large infantry pushes maximum a few times in the game.

im a little bit confused about volks vet, have some bonuses been completely removed from volks?

Kubel not only got nerfed but its now the starting unit lool.

I dont think FRP should have been removed, it should have been given to EFA and i liked the idea someone mentioned having a 33% cost increase for reinforcing at the med HQ. No one is going to build a med HQ out of their base because you cant retreat to it in order to defend it.

KT nerfed? whhaaat???

12 minutes of the game my mortar is constantly on the front line and I constantly nurse him. One kill. My question is simple. Why is a Soviet mortar sucking? Why the Wehrmacht mortar constantly wipes 6 people full squad?

FRPs need to be either removed or included for all factions. An argument can be made that armies are different etc, but I simply do not see anything that EFAs have which could possibly compensate for a FRP, especially on larger maps in teamgames.

If FRP has to remain ingame for OKW, one possibility is instead of braindead research, to have it an activated ability on the medic truck: pay 100 ammo to get 1 minute of Forward Retreat functionality on the truck.

That way it can't be spammed but it can be set up along with large infantry pushes maximum a few times in the game.

oohh good idea +1

FRPs need to be either removed or included for all factions. An argument can be made that armies are different etc, but I simply do not see anything that EFAs have which could possibly compensate for a FRP, especially on larger maps in teamgames.

If FRP has to remain ingame for OKW, one possibility is instead of braindead research, to have it an activated ability on the medic truck: pay 100 ammo to get 1 minute of Forward Retreat functionality on the truck.

That way it can't be spammed but it can be set up along with large infantry pushes maximum a few times in the game.

+1

This idea needs some polishing but turning FRP into an active ability is definitely the best direction to go with them. That way we neither remove a feature from a game nor give it to all the factions and these are obviously unacceptable becouse it would couse further unification of factions.

Finally we adjust veterancy thresholds.

Veterancy threshold for Volks in live are 480/960/1920/2400/3120
(notice how ridiculously close Vet4/Vet5 are to Vet3; this is the same for all OKW units, which is why Vet4/Vet5 feel like they always snowball)

Therefore, we adjust them to: 480/720/960/1440/1920

Now it takes less time for Volks to get to Vet5. It also takes considerably less time to get to their Vet2/Vet4 flavour bonuses. This is the same for all OKW squads.

Did you also adjust the amount of XP that is given to enemy squads for damaging okw units on high vet? I don't see that in the notes. If the idea is to make vet5 on par with ostheer vet3 then my first impression is that damaging vet5 okw units should give as much XP as damaging ostheer vet3 units. Of course it can also be counted as the drawback of a faction that it grants more XP to opponents, but mind that if old values are going to still be in place then allies are going to reach vet3 much faster than before, being fed on early veting okw squads.

Did you also adjust the amount of XP that is given to enemy squads for damaging okw units on high vet? I don't see that in the notes. If the idea is to make vet5 on par with ostheer vet3 then my first impression is that damaging vet5 okw units should give as much XP as damaging ostheer vet3 units. Of course it can also be counted as the drawback of a faction that it grants more XP to opponents, but mind that if old values are going to still be in place then allies are going to reach vet3 much faster than before, being fed on early veting okw squads.

Yeah, we did; that should be under the general notes (the part where we discuss PGrens/Tommies/Obers/ets). We also sneakily added a note about vet5.

Previously it was +0.2 (additive) for all vet levels. Now, if a squad gets 5 vet levels it's +0.12

Cheers for bringing it up, though.

The only change we've done with respect to trucks is the T4 truck.

T4 costs considerably less to setup. Thus, even if you lose your truck, you can still setup a new one and still get access to Obers (which you will need post-Volks-nerfs) and JP4 (which you will also need, given that you are now on the defensive after being pushed off).

If you had previously researched the T4 assault group upgrade, you can also, still, skip rebuilding T4 and go for a King Tiger.

Losing access to the revamped Panther and the revamped P4 are part of the risk-reward deal; if you place your T4 too greedily and lose it, you have to play defensively while you recover.

The changes to T4 pricing are so that other recovery options become available, rather than just King Tiger.

Having heal and retreat in different places cripples the faction thus there is little point in placing T1 outside base.

Placing T2 outside base offers very little.

As for the KT the main issue is that it can be instantly replaced. Simply add a cooldown for the ability after the units is destroyed (same should go for other vehicles limited to 1)

Placing T3 outside needs an upgrade to be able to defend itself and further upgrades to produce units so aggressive placing is not a worth while investment.

In addition the whole KT only complicates things.

Suggestions:
1) Have truck start with less HP and less Range for T4 truck
2) Allow them to buy upgrades to increase armor/HP and range to current levels
3) Lock truck upgrades behind second trucks placement to delay the upgrades

With the changes the aggressive placement of truck will be less potent initially but still an option and will gradually become stronger.

Is this still your impression after using Volks in the mod?

This points I made to about VG is not balance issues but design issues.

Having units with good DPS at all ranges is bad design.

Allowing units mainline infantry to easily deny cover from enemy is bad design.

Allowing to always defend from green cover is bad design.

Before the mod completely moves on to the other armies one last word on behalf of the Artillery Field Officer.
As I said before, this unit is useless, but in a last effort to try to save him let me explain it in detail.
In my opinion, his main problem are his abilities combined with his non-existent fighting power. To explain what I mean by what let's look at his abilities one by one:

Artillery Smoke Barrage 20 mun
Definitely his best ability. With the cost reduction very good for its price. Smoke comes relatively early it covers a good area. In another army, it would be an amazing ability. But in the Ostheer you have a powerful T1 mortar which not only delivers smoke for free, but also has amazing damage potential for the same price. The next problem lies in the core faction design. If you need smoke you are probably dealing with a lot of mgs, in which case a mortar would be a much better investment. Due to the lack of units which want to close in calling smoke to close the distance is not an option. Ostheer doesn't have Shocks or Rangers who could run throw it and destroy anything on the other side.
Conclusion: Very good ability but sadly in the wrong faction.

Concentrated Fire 25 mun
First what does it: Infantry: +15% accuracy, 20 meter radius, Vehicles: -13% reload, 20 meter radius at vet 3 the boni change to +25% and to -25%
On paper, this sounds really good. But yet again good ability, wrong army. The problem of Grens and Pgrens is not their damage output, it's how little they survive. Not only is the +15% accuracy buff barely noticeable in an actual fight, if you use it early on in the already muni starved faction you delay your Lmgs which are in itself a much better option if you want more firepower. And don't forget. The officer itself replaces one Gren. So you are one fighting squad down and the buff is not nearly enough to make it worthwhile.
Conclusion: Decent ability, but not needed.

Coordinated Fire 80 mun
How it works: all artillery, mortars, and rockets in range will immediately fire on the target, regardless of cooldown. Basically, you can bypass the cooldown on your Panzerwerfer or LeFH for 80 mun.
Not only is it incredibly expensive it's also one of the most useless and circumstantial abilities in the whole game. To get more use out of it, then an 80 mun mortar barrage you need to tech T4 for the Panzerwerfer which by itself is a rare unit in 1vs1s. And even if you manage to get to this rare case scenario you can bypass 30-50 sec of Barrage cooldown for the insane price of 80 mun. To consider is also, that you will probably fire your barrage at max range, due to the fragile nature of the Panzerwerfer, so the scatter is insane.
Conclusion: Useless, overpriced and circumstantial.

First Aid Kit 15 mun
Simple question, why should I build the Officier, then Grens can do the same for the same price?
Conclusion: Good ability, wrong unit.

After the conclusion, that his support abilities are bad, he should be a good fighting squad to be worthwhile. But guess what, he isn't. And that's the major problem with this unit, it's not good at anything.

Now onto the things that changed in the mod:

Artillery Officer

To incentivise the deployment of the Artillery Officer, we have removed the 1 CP requirement for the unit’s deployment. Furthermore we have reduced the smoke cost and have added shared veterancy so the unit is better able to support fights from a distance.

- Smoke munitions cost to 20MU
- Receives shared veterancy
- Population from 9 to 6
- Available from 0 CP
- Abilities remain accessible even if the officer model dies
- Officer model moved to the back of the formation

To sum it up, the unit received multiple small buffs and quality of life improvements which certainly helped him but didn't target his main problems as explained before.

The big question is now, what can we do to save him?
I see two ways of doing this. Either make him a true support unit or rework him into a combat unit.

Solution 1 Support
If you decide to go the Support unit role, the abilities should be really worth it. They should outway at least a mortar or a gren. So what can be done?
Smoke barrage is fine how it is, the other abilities need drastic changes however:
-Coordinated fire:
Rework it to "Supervise Artillery" The Artillery Field Officer coordinates the use of mortars, LeFH and Panzerwerfern, improving their effectiveness. Also, the supervised units are able to fire incendiary shells.
How it works: Like the captains supervise, target a mortar, LeFH or Panzerwerfer. Barrage Cooldowns are 50% reduced at vet 3 additionally 50% more shells fired per barrage. Supervised artillery pieces get access to Incendiary Barrage 40 mun.
-Concentrated fire:
Add some received accuracy buffs to it, so that it's actually worthwhile. Increase the area.
-Vet 1 Remove the medkits and replace it with a copy of the major artillery. Implement vet boni for more shells
-Increase cp back to 1, with the Ostruppen commander you can call in two squads at once at the moment, a bit too much

This version would be a true Artillery Field Officer, able to support Arty and Infantry, not a fighting unit but good for support.



Solution 2 Combat
If we look at Ostheers unit roster, it's clear, what it lacks an elite close range brawler unit. So I suggest reworking the Artillery Officer into what. In the game files he is already named the assault officer so why not? Steps to do it:
-Rename the unit into Sturmofizier
-Remove aura buff, and coordinated fire, keep smoke
-change weapon to mp40s but equal to shocks damage output
-give him a 4 man PGren or assault grens model bodyguard.
-new ability "Execute" 20 mun target an enemy for increased damage or accuracy
-give him interrogate ability from g43s
-and as a possible vet 1 stun nades or Sprint
-rework vet to fit the new unit style
-change cp to 2 or 3 depending on where he lands damage wise

All in all, it would change the unit into a thematically fitting good close range unit. A unit the Ostheer currently lacks. Definitely my preferred way.

This are my two solutions I came up with. Both suitable and superior to the present Artillery Officer. Of course, the actual values need testing but that's the reason for this mod. I am open for debates on my suggestions, but if someone says the Artillery Field Officier is fine without having a replay to prove it, then youre playing a different game.

PS: If you read this Bene, always remember: use your units more efficiently

+1 and agree 100% with MarioSilver. You'd think with the flop of DoW3, Relic would be much more concerned about inept "balance" adjustments to their still-existing franchises... but I guess not.

As is, the broad nerfs to Axis are ridiculous against what are essentially buffs to all Soviet units save for DShKA. Especially the removal of FRP for OKW (not even an Eastern Front Army, you frauds!) while USF/UKF retain theirs... complete nonsense.

And what is even more deplorable is the way the modding duo ignore every feedback, criticism and opinions expressed by Axis players.

Question: is there any chance that a Commissar​ unit would be designed to give conscripts support and added to the Soviet faction, then added to commanders like NKVD, cons support and terror? I find lack of zampolits in a faction with stock penal battalions unbelievable. Relic would have to agree of course, but it would be entirely community effort as the model and voiceover are already in-game.

So I've been thinking about the removal of FRPs, and here's my humble two cents:

It occurred to me that WFA as a general rule of thumb has no non-doctrinal reinforcement-providing troop transports like EFA does. I'm curious if this will be addressed as well?

Looking at OKW specifically, the 251 Walking Stuka is the easiest to retool. A marker_ext and some hold_ext edits would allow it to function similarly to the other open-topped halftracks. The Stuka's cost can be lowered and the rocket artillery functionality locked behind an upgrade that, depending on how testing plays out, may or may not take away its transportation and reinforcement abilities like CoH1. This would allow MechHQ to have forward reinforcement, too, opening up new venues of play. There are even voicelines for an OKW troop carrier in the files that can be heard on those rare occasions you capture an abandoned APC.

I haven't quite pieced together ideas for UKF and USF besides making their doctrinal halftracks non-doctrinal. I know for certain that the 251 Stuka as a troop transport functionally works.

Hey mod team! You guys realize that if these changes go live, that USF and UKF have an insane advantage since they have superior infantry and a frp still?

Considering Relic's patch frequency, this wil be months of unfair advantages to players that have acces to these abilities whilst others don't.