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russian armor

Conscripts y u so bad

12 Apr 2017, 08:19 AM
#41
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2017, 07:36 AMCrumbum
PPSH upgrade should be non-doctrinal which must be unlocked from hq and then purchased for each conscript (3x ppsh).

At nades and molotovs should be merged as a single unlock but at a higher cost. If they are to remain separate however, then either molotovs must be buffed or their unlock cost must be reduced.

Other than this I would say conscripts are fine since they have good utility and low reinforce costs.


This is the best solution by far! :)

12 Apr 2017, 08:36 AM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Imo the solution is quite simple. Conscript should become the defensive infantry and Penal the offensive one.

That would solve the issues with both units.
12 Apr 2017, 09:40 AM
#43
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212



This is the best solution by far! :)



This does look good. But also then the commanders that supply PPSH would need to be changed.
12 Apr 2017, 12:08 PM
#44
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

QOL:

Conscript merge would function a whole lot better if it reduced the squad to 1 man instead of completely removing the squad.


Balance
-Merge :snfPeter: AT nades and Molotov upgrade.
Idea i can get behind without much complain or foreseeing issues. This also opens up a slot in case an upgrade wants to be implemented on HQ.

Now here comes some of the problems with some ideas which could be fine but would take a lot of work in order to either balance, account for doctrinal slots or with the identity of the unit or other infantry.

-DPs:
Pls no.
-Guard Mosin upgrade:
???
-PPSH at whatever tier or locked upgrade:
What do we do with commanders?
-SVT Partisan (half damage at long compared to Penals) package:
???
-Reducing reinforcing cost/time upgrade:
Little worried about spam, combination with commander PPSH and/or rapid conscription
-Oorah at 5muni:
:loco:



What we all should have in mind, is not making Volks STG44 2.0 with conscripts.
12 Apr 2017, 12:41 PM
#45
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2

Here is my idea that I have been experimenting around with.

New Unit
High Commissar (T0)
-300 Manpower
-Uses munitions support abilities to lead soviet units to allow better scaling in the late game.
-Initial Commissar has a longer deploy time
-Shared Veternacy

Abilities:


Mod:


This will allow soviets to have a non doctrinal Munition's sink while able to make conscripts more able to fight against better equipped units. Additionally it will access to a more resilient tank, the KV1.
12 Apr 2017, 12:53 PM
#46
avatar of Judge Fred

Posts: 15

Permanently Banned
I would say adjust their rifles first so they actually consistently deal damage and then possibly adjust the upgrades revolving around Conscripts, then work from there.
That is lots of buffs, and you still say "then work from there".

As stated by tournament champions and top players, cons are an L2P unit.


Buffed rifles, immortality at vet 3 supported by goards and penals and maxims. :hansWUT:


Yeah, we might as well move the panzerwerfer to T1 and remove the fuel cost.
12 Apr 2017, 19:32 PM
#47
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

QOL:

Balance
-Merge :snfPeter: AT nades and Molotov upgrade.
Idea i can get behind without much complain or foreseeing issues. This also opens up a slot in case an upgrade wants to be implemented on HQ.


Opens up another conscript upgrade... but it could also be a new upgrade that unlocks satchels on penals and demo charges on combat engies. Demolitions package. 30 fuelish.

What we all should have in mind, is not making Volks STG44 2.0 with conscripts.


That depends volks stgs 1.0 was problematic to begin with. It doesnt have to be this way, but it unfortunately is.

Exchange volks rifles for mp40s along with or instead of the stgs would be key. Then it may not be a disaster to approach cons in this sense.

That said, if cons get a global x3 ppsh upgrade, then commanders could retain the muni x3 ppsh to either get cons ppsh earlier or to make them like poor man's shock troops with 6 ppsh.
12 Apr 2017, 19:44 PM
#48
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

- make 3х PPSh non doctrinal
- make 3x SVT-40 in the doctrine
- unite Molotov (better to replace it with a normal grenade) with an anti-tank grenade
- remove the throw delay
12 Apr 2017, 20:25 PM
#49
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2

Instead of buffing the Molotov. The Molotov is cheap and actually quite good for its cost. Why not nerf its counter part, the volks incendiary grenade, by adding a 1.5 second timer like other grenades?
12 Apr 2017, 21:29 PM
#50
avatar of c r u C e

Posts: 525

- make 3х PPSh non doctrinal
- make 3x SVT-40 in the doctrine
- unite Molotov (better to replace it with a normal grenade) with an anti-tank grenade
- remove the throw delay


This could actualy work with some testing,make them on par with other mainline infantry.
I like the mollie,but it's throwing animation is so long,it would be fine to replace the throwing animation with a normal grenade throwing one
12 Apr 2017, 22:41 PM
#51
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Instead of buffing the Molotov. The Molotov is cheap and actually quite good for its cost. Why not nerf its counter part, the volks incendiary grenade, by adding a 1.5 second timer like other grenades?


The volks nade is already twice the cost and is the only non-doc way to deal with garrisoned units or emplacements. Why does the volks nade need a nerf?

Molotov could do with a slight throw time reduction. The double step before the throw is unnecessary.
12 Apr 2017, 23:06 PM
#52
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Instead of buffing the Molotov. The Molotov is cheap and actually quite good for its cost. Why not nerf its counter part, the volks incendiary grenade, by adding a 1.5 second timer like other grenades?


The problem I've always seen with the volks incin nade aside from its cost is the fact that you run up to a garrison and throw the nade and force the squad out. If this squad happens to be 2x BAR rifles or 2x Bren tommies congratulations you just denied their cover but now they're ontop of you with higher DPS meaning you lost 35 munis AND have to retreat and probably lose a model. I wasn't around when volks had the model 24 frag grenade but I honestly don't see a problem with it in my head. If someone could enlighten me with that that'd be great.
12 Apr 2017, 23:39 PM
#53
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Conscripts could switch to a normal grenade animation for molotovs at vet 2 or something as well.
13 Apr 2017, 00:32 AM
#54
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

The problem I've always seen with the volks incin nade aside from its cost is the fact that you run up to a garrison and throw the nade and force the squad out. If this squad happens to be 2x BAR rifles or 2x Bren tommies congratulations you just denied their cover but now they're ontop of you with higher DPS meaning you lost 35 munis AND have to retreat and probably lose a model. I wasn't around when volks had the model 24 frag grenade but I honestly don't see a problem with it in my head. If someone could enlighten me with that that'd be great.


I'll start by saying I hate the flame grenade because it's ahistoric and complete fiction in an otherwise generally authentic game. Anyway the problem with the fragmentation grenade was that it was the only anti-building weapon OKW had at the start of the game, and didn't actually deny the building. If the other player was paying attention, he would just exit the building on the other side, let the grenade explode, then immediately go back inside. Now you're out 35 Munitions and you didn't do anything at all, he still has the building. They added the flame effects so that the other person could not simply re-enter the building, they would have to give the building up.
13 Apr 2017, 00:36 AM
#55
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2



The volks nade is already twice the cost and is the only non-doc way to deal with garrisoned units or emplacements. Why does the volks nade need a nerf?


The delay does not interfere with the anti garrison or emplacements since it still goes off. It just adds in a bit of reaction time seeing that there extremely little to no room to dodge it like any other grenade.
13 Apr 2017, 00:49 AM
#56
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



I'll start by saying I hate the flame grenade because it's ahistoric and complete fiction in an otherwise generally authentic game. Anyway the problem with the fragmentation grenade was that it was the only anti-building weapon OKW had at the start of the game, and didn't actually deny the building. If the other player was paying attention, he would just exit the building on the other side, let the grenade explode, then immediately go back inside. Now you're out 35 Munitions and you didn't do anything at all, he still has the building. They added the flame effects so that the other person could not simply re-enter the building, they would have to give the building up.


Ah see now that actually makes sense. Still though, it's frustrating sometimes how volks don't have a burst damage grenade and have to either go for infiltration grenades or wait for obers for bundles. With the flame nade if your opponet isn't asleep most of the damage is negated. This wouldn't be a problem if volks would win against the squad they're clearing, but if it's anything other than conscripts w/o ppshs or an MG or an engineer they just lose unless you're supporting the clear.
13 Apr 2017, 00:56 AM
#57
avatar of Nano

Posts: 212



I'll start by saying I hate the flame grenade because it's ahistoric and complete fiction in an otherwise generally authentic game. Anyway the problem with the fragmentation grenade was that it was the only anti-building weapon OKW had at the start of the game, and didn't actually deny the building. If the other player was paying attention, he would just exit the building on the other side, let the grenade explode, then immediately go back inside. Now you're out 35 Munitions and you didn't do anything at all, he still has the building. They added the flame effects so that the other person could not simply re-enter the building, they would have to give the building up.


This is a smart post. The flame nade is super important to OKW in urban maps, making it worse with out providing some other way of dealing with garrisons is not going to go well.

I think everyone here generally agrees that the Molotov could be buffed and cost increased or at the very least sped up so so the throw animation isn't so hilariously slow.
13 Apr 2017, 19:28 PM
#58
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 236

make cons 210mp with t4 ppsh upgrade available. done.
14 Apr 2017, 08:42 AM
#59
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2017, 07:49 AMFLTA
Only thing I'd do is reduce reinforcement cost, cons shouldn't be the heavy DPS unit like double BAR rifles or STG volks.

I like this idea.

There are some other changes that'd be good though, like faster molotovs or molotov/nade package.

Your thoughts on these?
14 Apr 2017, 09:26 AM
#60
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

I don´t want to be pesimistic, but if we give conscripts indoctrinal ppsh, we will have to remove their vet3 recieved accuracy bonus.

Because currently ppsh vet3 conscripts beat vet3 lmg grens, always. I run several tests and it always ended the same.

Even if conscripts run through red cover whole time without using ooorah and grens are in green cover - grens will lose.

Conscripts always win against grens if both are vet3, cons have ppsh and grens have lmg42.


SOLUTION: Make conscripts a cannot fodder unit. At vet 3 they get decrease in reinforcement cost (15-16 mp) and also decrease their "value" so other units vet less from killing vet3 conscripts (so they become cannon fodded but not vet fodder :D)
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