Time for Commander Buffs

This recent patch has done a lot to make all core army units viable, and I would say all core units at this point are useful to some extent. Unfortunately I can't say the same for the commanders. Many commander abilities have been ignored for a long time and with the core units in better shape then they've been (other then usf mortar and bugs) I believe it's finally time to turn our attention to our forgotten commander abilities.

So here's a nice list of commander abilities that could really use buffs:

All Howitzer based units
Static howitzers are destroyed too easily by cheap call-ins and all howitzers, even the moving ones, are upstaged by their rocket artillery equivalents. They should have more AT utility through stunning or crits to better define them against the rockets.


USF
* In the worst state when it comes to commander diversity. Only has a few fully viable commanders and has the most underpowered abilities.

105 Sherman
Questionable if it is even any better at AI then a normal sherman, yet is more expensive and has little to no AT. Needs either more range or better AoE/damage.

Advanced Vehicle Crews
Made for an extremely niche purpose, that is prett much unused by USF. Needs a complete overhaul or replacement.

Assault Engineers
Good when they come out, but bad durability scaling means they rarely last long in a game thanks to their need to be so close to the enemy to be effective. Should receive another man at vet 2 or 3.

I&R Pathfinders
Dedicated scouts and artillery unit, that is neither good at scouting or calling in artillery. Needs to be able to camo when moving in cover and artillery range should be increased.

M8 Greyhound
A terrible light vehicle that can't even take on a 222 despite similar role and being more expensive. Needs some general buffs as well as coming stock with sideskirts as this is a redundant upgrade that everyone uses anyway, and hurts an already munitions heavy commander.

Recon Sweep
Redundant thanks to majors recon which does the same thing for cheaper. Doesn't even provide consistent vision to support indirect units. Should be replaced with loiter.

Airdropped Combat Group
Overly expensive for a late game infantry call-in. AT gun should be removed since it is a liability for using this ability behind enemy lines like it should and inflates the cost too much. Para types should also be consistent as well.

WC51
Decent unit but heavily overpriced. More expensive then a 222 in manpower and fuel.


M3 Half-Track Assault Group
Because who doesn't want 2 0cp level units at cp3. Just a terribly weak ability that is never used, should be replaced with a M5 or M5 with assault engis.

Paradrop Crew Weapons
I'm still not quite sure why this wasn't like it's coh1 equivalent. While some use it to get around teching limitations, at least one of the abilities will be useless. Should simply drop with a 3 man squad to crew it so it can actually be used to reinforce the front quickly.

P-47 Rocket strike
Much less effective then it's Ju-87 equivalent despite same price and role, as well as inconsistent thanks to the scatter of the rockets. Needs either reduced price or better effectiveness.

Time on Target Artillery
Has an extremely long wait between the smoke and shells hitting. And doesn't even drop that many shells. In comparison the mechanized artillery drops faster and has more shells. Should either hit quicker or drop over a much larger area.

UKF

Foward Observation Post
Because who doesn't want to pay manpower and fuel to access full priced, mediocre abilities within a limited range... Abilities should be discounted due to the initial price and limitations of the ability.

Artillery Overwatch
I just tested this ability. Despite constant sight on multiple squads of infantry in friendly territory, it failed to kill a single non-moving volks squad. It fired at that single squad for the entirety of the ability too. Did I mention this costs 225 munitions. Yeah it's pretty terrible. It probably shouldn't be tied to the base howitzers at all considering how long it takes them to change between targets.

valentine
It's scouting ability is good and all, but it has to be a little good at fighting or else it pretty much is an overexpensive IR halftrack.

Soviets

B-4 203mm Howitzer
Used to be good when it wasn't hitting units with pinpoint accuracy. Now it's damage has been nerfed heavily, not only does it rely heavily on RNG even with direct hits it simply isnt very rewarding. AOE and damage needs to be adjusted to make it useful.

M-42 45mm AT gun
A weak unit that is useless the moment the first medium comes on the field. Needs more utility either through some sort of stunning or snaring mechanic or giving it some AI utility.


KV-1
Even as a lighter heavy, it simply isn't tanky enough to do anything reliably. Needs more endurance


OKW

Flak Emplacement
Too easily decrewed, and has trouble with elevation. Could use an extra man so it isn't turned on you by a single nade.


flammpanzer Hetzer
Generally low lethality for an AI specialist, just needs to do a bit more damage.


Whermacht

Assault Grenadiers
Similar problem as assault engis with bad scaling. Could just generally use better vet bonuses to keep up with allied infantry.


Trench
To easily turned on you by the enemy, thus rarely used. Should be identical with brit trenches.

agree but ir pathfinder is fine.

While some abilities are underwhelming and need buffs, there is also a lot of eastern front commanders that are kind of redundant.
Some abilites could be merged such as merging Hit The Dirt with the Conscript PPSH package (and maybe increase cost to 60mu), merging tank traps with the small PMD-6 mine and AT gun ambush.
Those are some of the obvious ones and it would help solve some overlap and also give some mediocre commanders some more usability, IMO.

USF? Buffs?

Make mech call in come with cavalry rifles, buff m3 HP

ToT delay buff, two extra shells

Greyhound HP to 320, buff main gun rate of fire

Airdropped combat group should be three para squads, no AT gun.

Recon plane price buffs across the board to no more than 50 muni

Would love if the 45mm light AT-gun could be given the same gun as a t-70. Make it decent against both lights and a unique gun that can help with infantry, when it loses its usefulness against vehicles.

Only other unit that might be worth adding would be Storms (vet and maybe better K98s).

Dustbin also makes a good point, Soviets and Ost have a lot of random crap that's just kind of there. A few buffs here and there and rolling some underwhelming and rare crap together would definitely be a great change to spice things up.

How about making the M42 a doctrinal Soviet Raketenwerfer 43? And by that I mean that it should garrison and retreat as well since it's as small as the raketen, if Relic even ever add a Pak 36 it should also be garrisonable and retreatable if you ask me, just a simple suggestions that I'm throwing out there, don't really know if it's even possible since I tried it and the results were... wonky, might be me, or might just be the limitations of the modding tools.

While some abilities are underwhelming and need buffs, there is also a lot of eastern front commanders that are kind of redundant.
Some abilites could be merged such as merging Hit The Dirt with the Conscript PPSH package (and maybe increase cost to 60mu), merging tank traps with the small PMD-6 mine and AT gun ambush.
Those are some of the obvious ones and it would help solve some overlap and also give some mediocre commanders some more usability, IMO.

A big one that's always stood out to me was NKVD. It's nothing but munition based abilities, even overrlapping ones like prapaganda and flame arty. They should really throw the unused NKVD officer in that commander.

Would love if the 45mm light AT-gun could be given the same gun as a t-70. Make it decent against both lights and a unique gun that can help with infantry, when it loses its usefulness against vehicles.

I don't know about giving it the exact same stats, a 60 range gun that can kill everything before medium armor arrives seems like it might be a bit too strong, but he/ap toggle like the sherman is something that could be real interesting.

Howitzers: Stationary howitzers should have their cost reduced to 450MP, perhaps. Mobile howitzers like the Priest and the Sexton should also get a slight cost reduction.

Sherman Bulldozer: I'd like to see the "Create Barricade" ability work properly (movement blocker, and proper heavy cover). It could use a touch more area of effect, but turning it into a USF Brummbar might be over the top.

M8 Greyhound: I'd like to see it with a Vet 0 "Cautious Movement" ability, like the one on the Luchs (along with a hold fire button, and not fire the co-axial MG). This would turn it into a true recon unit, that ties in well with its Commander and its role. Also, have it come with armored skirts stock.

Time-on-Target: If this could be turned into a something like the "Precision Artillery Barrage" we saw in Ardennes Assault, that would make it incredible. Three 105mm shells (comparable to leFH 18) falling on the target within 3 seconds of smoke, and within 1 second of each other--that would be very useful. Wouldn't have enough damage to kill anything other than a bunker or some infantry, but it would be a quick way to thin out a massive assault.

M3 Halftrack Assault Group: Replace Assault Engineers with Cavalry Riflemen (3 Officer Thompsons, 2 Riflemen Garands) and we're good to go.

P-47 Rocket Strike: I would settle for it's performance if it was just 180MU. Reduce the cool-down a touch as well, to reflect the constant air support the Allies had.

M-42 45mm ATG: I'd like to see it as the Soviet version of the Raketenwerfer, as Miragefla has done in his mod.

Flak Emplacement: If it couldn't be abandoned, that would solve its durability issues. It's already easy enough to deactivate with some smoke.

Assault Grenadiers: They're in a good spot in my opinion. Just need to support it with a long-ranged anti-infantry unit, such as stock Grenadiers with LMG42s. Don't suffer from being too fragile either.

I agree with Dustbin as well. There are a lot of things in the WM/SU Commander lineup that could also sue some revamping.

Valentine buff god damn we need a Valentine buff

the tank is worse than the old T-34/76 at killing things

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Thought I'd add some UKF stuff. First the genuinely useless:

Valentine
It is worse than the AEC in practically every role, and it's all down to the main gun. From what I've read it got its damage halved just before launch. 80 damage is simply too low. Needs to be at least 120.

Anti-building Flame Mortar Support
Simply pointless. Too many conditions to make it work and even then it does very little.

Slightly less pointless but have issues:
Hold the Line
STILL buggy/awkward as hell to use in team games. Requires that you personally capture the frontline points rather than your allies or it won't trigger. Only way to keep track of this is to have a very good memory. More often than not you'll activate it only to find the sector you want it in isn't eligible.

Commando Glider
The glider itself is pointless. For something designed for quiet infiltration, it was sure nice of them to give a big green flare at the landing spot and make massive swooshing noises in case your opponent didn't notice. Can't re-enforce outside of friendly territory. Can't be repaired. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't push the cost of the commandos up to 500.

Forward logistics glider
Better than the commando glider since it can build units, but in turn can't deploy outside of friendly territory. Can't build units if the glider crashes. Can't be repaired. No longer gives a resource boost. Not bad, but I'm just not sure the cost is justified.

All Howitzer based units
Static howitzers are destroyed too easily by cheap call-ins and all howitzers, even the moving ones, are upstaged by their rocket artillery equivalents. They should have more AT utility through stunning or crits to better define them against the rockets.

I personally never liked howitzer emplacements, since there is a range limitation )exacerbated in larger maps), and the need to micromanage the popcap, manpower and builders to access it. Compared with off-map stuff and mobile artillery like Katyushas, they aren't particularly powerful unless it's firing at a sim city (which means only one faction).
I personally preferred if it was like how they designed the British base howitzers: based in HQ sector, has their own range limit, but you have units that can make them fire beyond range. Make it so the spotting unit needs to maintain target for the howitzers to keep firing: you risk a unit for the howitzers to fire, and if the opponent fails to take it out, they will continue being shelled. Off-map abilities by comparison cost munitions and CP, and are "blind fire" barrages.

Advanced Vehicle Crews
Made for an extremely niche purpose, that is prett much unused by USF. Needs a complete overhaul or replacement.

I would have at least made this ability where repair units can repair faster but with certain penalties, like increased manpower upkeep while repairing, and/or Vehicle Crews can already use critical repair and gain vet faster or something. An SMG weapon upgrade on the second-worse squad in the game, topping only medics, clearly showed Relic ran out of ideas.

Assault Engineers
Good when they come out, but bad durability scaling means they rarely last long in a game thanks to their need to be so close to the enemy to be effective. Should receive another man at vet 2 or 3.

A bit ambivalent on this one, they're clearly meant to deal with specific threats. Maybe if they got Sturmpionier's Minesweeper package upgrade that boosts repair speed and can swap minesweeper, and the 5th guy comes in at vet2 like RETs?

I&R Pathfinders
Dedicated scouts and artillery unit, that is neither good at scouting or calling in artillery. Needs to be able to camo when moving in cover and artillery range should be increased.

I forgot: do I&F Pathfinders have autosnipe like Jaegers? Do the Airborne variant still has them? At three men, there isn't any good reason to remove it, even given the arty strike.

M8 Greyhound
A terrible light vehicle that can't even take on a 222 despite similar role and being more expensive. Needs some general buffs as well as coming stock with sideskirts as this is a redundant upgrade that everyone uses anyway, and hurts an already munitions heavy commander.

I actually think Greyhound's 37mm gun should be a non-doc upgrade for the M20, and of course having their armour buffed a bit. What the commander ability has instead is a more generalist unlock that gives multiple units the shrapnel shell ability: the Sherman's 75mm gun for example had the T30 canister shell in real life; even the 90mm gun for Jackson had the M336 canister shell, though that might be OP since it is a tank destroyer. Keeping it to Stuart, Greyhound and Sherman seems sufficient to make it a potent ability for players confronting infantry trying to go for a snare.

Recon Sweep
Redundant thanks to majors recon which does the same thing for cheaper. Doesn't even provide consistent vision to support indirect units. Should be replaced with loiter.

Indeed the very least it should be a loiter, otherwise it is literally an off-map version of what the Major provides.

Airdropped Combat Group
Overly expensive for a late game infantry call-in. AT gun should be removed since it is a liability for using this ability behind enemy lines like it should and inflates the cost too much. Para types should also be consistent as well.

Problem with this ability alongside I&R Pathfinders is that they're obviously designed to be used in conjunction (what with the landing beacons); removing one kind of negates the other, though frankly neither are particularly great anyways. I assume the best method is to replace it with some sort of airdropped ability, maybe a version of UKF's airdrop ability where medical supplies and 1x bazooka and BAR? Lowering its CP would also make the commander a more attractive option while not turning it into some Paratrooper clone.

WC51
Decent unit but heavily overpriced. More expensive then a 222 in manpower and fuel.

Can't really comment on this unit since I don't use it much, but one idea that came to mind is ability to toggle to allow it to have 360 degree HMG capability? Maybe add suppression when it is toggled? At least then you got a fragile vehicle but one that can lock down parts of the map at the cost of being a mobile taxi like it should. This might end up just replacing Fighting Position, though.
Another idea is that it uses the repair upgrade ability described below, turning this little cab into the vehicle version of ambulance, this makes it supremely useful even in lategame where it provides repairs for vehicles. Upgrading removes transport and/or machine gun.
A third idea is that it can also be upgraded to work like Opel truck. The result is a light vehicle that while a bit expensive compared to 222, has many utility options to support your other units, either by repairing or providing extra resources. Both ideas seem remotely faithful to the Mechanized theme.

M3 Half-Track Assault Group
Because who doesn't want 2 0cp level units at cp3. Just a terribly weak ability that is never used, should be replaced with a M5 or M5 with assault engis.

In Ardennes Assault, M3s could upgrade to toggle a repair aura for nearby vehicles, I think this should have been the option, especially since the AA variant wasn't scrapped from the campaign or anything. Or even just give it same quad ability, I mean the M5 was really just a beefed up M3 built for export, plus Relic just gave USF the same M5 through the Calliope commander anyways. Really, the solutions for this unit is not only simple, but already exist.

Paradrop Crew Weapons
I'm still not quite sure why this wasn't like it's coh1 equivalent. While some use it to get around teching limitations, at least one of the abilities will be useless. Should simply drop with a 3 man squad to crew it so it can actually be used to reinforce the front quickly.

I never really liked the coh variant, it would allow playesr to drop a suppression/ AT option right behind an enemy for an off-map ambush. And given the way CoH2 works where you can "blind drop", this means it is that much more OP. I don't see these abilities as useless.
If we really need it, then I say a suitable compromise is that you need to drop them within landing beacon range for them to come manned, which means pathfinders need to have laid them down strategically. This also has the added side benefit of the beacons also providing reinforcements for the paratrooper guys that drop with the weapon.

Foward Observation Post
Because who doesn't want to pay manpower and fuel to access full priced, mediocre abilities within a limited range... Abilities should be discounted due to the initial price and limitations of the ability.

I think it also lets you use the abilities separately, despite the text implying they have shared cooldown among them. Before I got the commander I assumed that the abilities were free, but shared cooldown and long cooldown time. This way the maximum range can be expanded and you have the dilemma of scout plane but no bombers, or use an existing unit to scout and try for an airstrike.
Instead what we have is a massive munitions sink that lacks range. It's like buying a 90mm AA emplacement for home defense: badass sure, but you'll NEVER use it.

M-42 45mm AT gun
A weak unit that is useless the moment the first medium comes on the field. Needs more utility either through some sort of stunning or snaring mechanic or giving it some AI utility.
I'm thinking they come with a toggle option to use AP shells, which is how they work now, and canister shells, where they are more effective against infantry, and more so if closer range, and have a special ability similar to Tread Shot at vet1. This doesn't replace your regular HMGs or AT guns in any way, but greatly enhance them when used in conjunction. Unlike Button, the vet1 ability could be something like blinding the target vehicle, but it can otherwise move normally, or it temporarily immobilizes them like how the Gammon bomb works.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jul 2016, 21:45 PMOmega_Warrior

Assault Grenadiers
Similar problem as assault engis with bad scaling. Could just generally use better vet bonuses to keep up with allied infantry.

I was thinking that maybe giving them some AT ability that is unlocked once you research Battle Phase 3 or 4, where they aren't deadly against light vehicles in the early game, but remain viable as part of the Grenadier meta once you start getting StuGs or Panthers. The ability could be a simple one like the same Grenadier Panzerfaust, or even 1x panzerschreck upgrade, making them work a bit like Stormtroopers.
Another idea is just give them an upgrade that offers 2x flamers and demolitions, mimicking the cut Urban Assault PGrens unit call-in.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jul 2016, 21:45 PMOmega_Warrior

Trench
To easily turned on you by the enemy, thus rarely used. Should be identical with brit trenches.

I thought about this before, I think one solution (if at all possible), is that slit trenches are owned depending on who owns the sector: if you build it in friendly territory, the enemy can't take it; however if the enemy neutralized the sector, anyone can take it; once captured by the enemy, you cannot use them. Being free and rather fragile, this doesn't sound terribly OP. But whether this is actually possible given the game engine and such I dunno.

I forgot: do I&F Pathfinders have autosnipe like Jaegers? Do the Airborne variant still has them? At three men, there isn't any good reason to remove it, even given the arty strike.

No I&R pathfinders do not snipe and have 1 less man then normal pathfinders. Meaning they are pretty much useless in a combat role.

They are best used by hiding them on the map so you can have los on your enemy and sometimes call down the artillery when they least expect it.

Problem is they can't move at all while camoed making it real hard to use them to scout the enemy while also having only 35 range on the artillery meaning they often need to make suicide charges at whatever they want to throw their arty at, also giving plenty of warning to your opponent and risking wipes on the pathfinder squad.

That's why I was suggesting moving camo, so they can actually be used as dedicated scouts sneaking around, when you don't have 140 muni in the bank for a arty strike.

so 1000 000 buff to usa and then fix useless thinks in other factions. I think so many other thinks need fixing except all those USA abilities (hello 50% of ostheer commaders)

so 1000 000 buff to usa and then fix useless thinks in other factions. I think so many other thinks need fixing except all those USA abilities (hello 50% of ostheer commaders)

USF commanders have largely gone untouched by relic because of they have been preoccupied with the constant OKW revamps since WFA release, hell their core MG only just became meta 2 years after release. Ostheer on the other hand has had plenty of attention to abilities in the year before WFA came out, and even some after.

So what specific ostheer abilities are there that you think are underpowered?

USF commanders have largely gone untouched by relic because of they have been preoccupied with the constant OKW revamps since WFA release, hell their core MG only just became meta 2 years after release. Ostheer on the other hand has had plenty of attention to abilities in the year before WFA came out, and even some after.

So what specific ostheer abilities are there that you think are underpowered?

Railway arty should fire same amound of shots as UKF copypasta, not be albe to be fired in base sector and get small munny increase

whole defensive should get rework - traps and trenches together and add left.

More other ToW should lose some abilities and get something interesting like stug e whitch was used at that time.

I think most abilities are fine, but problem is that most commaders except lighting war,mobile defence, spearhead, assgren commader, elite troops and prostruppen are weak because of bad combinations of abilities. I think they all should get some more useful combos or get bringed together.


Meanwhile western fronts and UKF commaders all have some use or abilities that were not just random combo of them. Yes some of them are weak but because of UP abilites. Problem of ostheer is that some of commaders are bad because of RRNG chosen abilities

All meta Ost commanders have panic button call ins, address Osts shitty infantry, or have MHT for anti ukf

Lots of good suggestions here but I think that many of the soviet and Wehrmacht commanders need revamping as others have mentioned also the Flammhetzer needs a cp reduction and a bit more armor in addition to the extra damage in order to justify the same price as the ostwind which has more utility because it can kill half tracks and harass tanks and of course it can shoot down planes also its much more easy to use and keep alive because it has a turret and blitz and the recoup losses ability in the feuersturm doctrine is useless because the OKW already has lots of manpower float and it has such a short duration, it could either be replaced or given a longer duration.