Ostheer (Wehrmacht) Grenadiers

Grens were OP as heck in vCoH and they were only 4 man squads. Increasing them to a 5 man doesn't really solve their issue. They definitely do pretty well at vet3, if they can hit vet3. I just think they need their vet switched around. It should also apply to Pgrens.

Vet1 First Aid
Vet2 +20% acc, -23% received acc
Vet3 +20% acc, -20% cooldown, -25% recharge w/ panzerfaust

This helps their early/mid game survivability where they are the most vulnerable. It's also a small enough change that wouldn't completely break the game.

Vet3 Bar Rifles shredded grens. What made them really strong was late-game in the sense that they could be built with vet3 and zombie-mode through medbunkers. Just to point that out.

Vet3 Bar Rifles shredded grens. What made them really strong was late-game in the sense that they could be built with vet3 and zombie-mode through medbunkers. Just to point that out.

Aslo like to point out Coh1 Grens have nothing in common with Coh2 grens except the name and 4 man squads.

The game is not a vacuum, wehr have access to a halftrack right behind their infantry constantly reinforcing.

Brits and USF do not

The game is not a vacuum, wehr have access to a halftrack right behind their infantry constantly reinforcing.

Brits and USF do not

They have a med truck.

I'm still relatively new, so take what I say with a grain of salt...

1. Assgrens aren't a great substitute for Grens, though they do work good in conjunction with each other. Can't speak much for Ostruppen.

2. While they definitely seem to be the weakest when compared directly to USF Riflemen, I very rarely use them in a pure 1v1 fight. There is always an HMG, Mortar, or Sniper being used in conjunction. I tend to use my Grens as a lure sometimes. One model dies quick, the other three seem like an easy kill.

3. A forward retreat point for Ostheer would be great, but I'm not entirely sure what it will fix. Grens still have the same combat abilities, they can just get back to it quicker.

Anyways, correct me if I'm terribly wrong but isn't the point of the early Ostheer game to utilize all your different infantry in some sort of a triangular support system to control the map until you can get a decent vehicle out, or simply lock down the map for an early game win? I never envisioned that my Gren squads could compete with most of the other infantry out there. To me, they are meant to be used in conjunction which is where the true effectiveness lies.

You don't need grenadiers to play this support role,Osttruppen won't wipe and dirt cheap reinforce.Alternatively pzgrens will protect your mgs much beter while having near same long range dps as LMG gren,they have vet bonuses that are competitive with rifle/IS,they aren't a muni sink either(which u can invest in tellers) and individual models die slower due to rec.accuracy.Grenadiers are a MP hole with frequent 30 mp reinforce and lategame will be wiped for sure.They also are useless assault troops as they can't fire on move,ur mgs may save u on defense,but on offense u need core infantry-especially for meeting engagements.
Rifle grenade is a joke and another munition sink.Faust has been indirectly nerfed.

Grenadiers overall are no longer a must have for wehrmacht.Infact their pathetic weakness will often cause you losses if you use them.

They have a med truck.

Ambulance and Major combo is far less usable in combat - both must be moved the moment enemies make contact to them or they're basically dead. Frankly, the Ambulance is pretty likely to still be dead, thing's made of glass and moves like, uhhhh...like hot glass. 251 just presses reverse a bit and gets to keep pulling Grens out like a clown car.

Assuming the forces are anywhere even though, 'cause vet 3 Rifles surrounding an Ambulance these days definitely have a pretty good chance of fighting off an oncoming attack to the Ambulance even if they lost a few guys...

What's even more important than changing the gren from 4 men to 5 men is their indian sounding voices.

Aslo like to point out Coh1 Grens have nothing in common with Coh2 grens except the name and 4 man squads.

And they can upgrade to panzerschrecks as well as LMG42.

grenadier's small squad size have always been their main weakness ever since the original release, but their actual capability has been fine up until recently

The Grenadier's biggest strong point is their firepower, or more precisely the lmg42. The upgrade give them excellent firepower and allow them to fight against the numerically superior allies.

The grenadier's biggest weak point is obviously their number. Their small squad size and received accuracy leave them vulnerable to explosive. This effectively mean grenadiers are glass cannon.

The problem with the USF late game previously was their lack of artillery and the bar upgrade. The grenadier are weak against artillery, but the pack howitzer had been a dud until recently. The weakness of the bar also mean the rifleman have trouble keeping up with the lmg42 grenadier.

In buffing the received accuracy on the vet 3 rifleman, late game grenadier have essentially lost their biggest advantage over the rifleman. Riflemans are now basically ignoring lmg42 bullets while the flamethrower and pack howitzer tear grenadiers to pieces.

I'd much prefer to have the 5-model upgrade for Panzergrenadiers. That would (1) justify their comparatively high cost (2) give the Ostheer a viable elite infantry squad (3) only affect mid-to-late game and thus not ruin early game infantry advantage the Allies are supposed to have over the Ostheer (4) feature the currently underused Panzergrenadiers more.

I'd prefer a 5 model upgrade for both, since it's way too easy to lose those squads to a single indirect fire. Where as the other counter pars got a more easy way to dodge it. In some sort of way they're always clustering which the others mostly of the time don't.

Or give the halftrack a forward retreat point option that locks it down, like the heal does for the USF med truck.

I would like to see how that would affect the effectiveness of Grens and Ostheer in general.

Or give the halftrack a forward retreat point option that locks it down, like the heal does for the USF med truck.

I would like to see how that would affect the effectiveness of Grens and Ostheer in general.

Exactly the same way it affects OKW and USF, it would instantly create imbalance on map presence and make walking straight into HMGs forgiving.

Mobile forward retreat point that reinforces, is pretty speedy, decently durable and arrives in early game, yeah, that looks balanced.

Exactly the same way it affects OKW and USF, it would instantly create imbalance on map presence and make walking straight into HMGs forgiving.

Mobile forward retreat point that reinforces, is pretty speedy, decently durable and arrives in early game, yeah, that looks balanced.

Especially since it's only a half track, thus dying in basically one volley to the Captain squad. And it's a problem especially because it further strengthens the Allies... oh wait, no it doesn't. Must be incredibly imbalanced to give something that works for OKW, UKF and USF to Ostheer. Oh the imbalance.

Especially since it's only a half track, thus dying in basically one volley to the Captain squad. And it's a problem especially because it further strengthens the Allies... oh wait, no it doesn't. Must be incredibly imbalanced to give something that works for OKW, UKF and USF to Ostheer. Oh the imbalance.

I'd rather see this "feature" gone from OKW and USF, its one of the very core causes of blobbing-HMGs don't punish it, because you just go back few steps and repeat YOLO assault until HMG can't take it anymore.

Yes because 5 man grenadier squads for 240 mp will solve absolutely every problem


Grens are cheap and cost effective, and that's not good enough?

IS cost just as much and are 2 MP cheaper to reinforce

riflemen cost 40 more to produce but completly wreck grens at all ranes, especially with vet and are cheaper to reinforce as well

IS cost just as much and are 2 MP cheaper to reinforce

riflemen cost 40 more to produce but completly wreck grens at all ranes, especially with vet and are cheaper to reinforce as well

IS cost 280.

Shows much about quality of knowledge of people participating in balance discussions

Or give the halftrack a forward retreat point option that locks it down, like the heal does for the USF med truck.

I would like to see how that would affect the effectiveness of Grens and Ostheer in general.

Feel free to create your own mod for that. But we don't need it in game.

IS cost 280.

Shows much about quality of knowledge of people participating in balance discussions

i dont have brits, i was checking the stats and misread, relax, even for 40mp more they completely blow grens and volks out of the water while costing less to reinforce than grens

The problem about grenadiers is that the UK IS and USF rifle got major buffs. I'm against the 5th man upgrade because that would just make the game more and more homogeneized, and much more favorable to little adjustments that could work out:

Rifles: instead of receiveng -23% Rec Acc at vet 2 and vet 3, what about -15% at vet2 and vet3? They would still have better rec acc at vet 3 compared to grens, but wouldn't be mainline cheap obers.

IS: reinforce could be set at 32 MP. I also think that they shouldn't build their own green cover. They already benefit from cover that exists anywhere in the map, so I think it's unfair that they can also make green cover.

Grens: reinforce at 28 mp, can build sandbags for green cover.

Done.