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vickers vs hmg42

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BeefSurge
8 Sep 2015, 00:58 AM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 00:32 AMMr. Someguy


Uh what? Infantry with Machine Guns don't fit Germans and IS-2 Heavy Tanks don't fit Soviets? What war are you thinking of?


I think of Soviets at quantity of T34 tanks, and Germans as revolving around heavy machine guns. In German infantry doctrine the main element of firepower was the MG42, compare this to the Soviets or Americans which favored greater individual firepower at the expense of squad based.

In game terms, this should translate to rifle squads/ cons having a greater role in infantry combat than HMGs, with the relationship between Grens and the HMG42 being the opposite.

In game however LMG Grens boost their squad level firepower to the point where HMGs aren't needed and Gren squads gain fire superiority themselves. If Gren only infantry fighting strategies were meant to be employed ingame, than Grens would be the T0 unit, just like Riflemen.

I personally think that the LMG upgrade should cost 80 muni, or be nerfed.
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Kothre
8 Sep 2015, 01:34 AM
#22
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Stat for stat, it seems like the MG 42 remains the best machine gun in the game. However, I can't help but take a liking to the Vickers. It just may be my favorite MG in the game. The extra range in buildings is extremely helpful. Plus, the firing sound is music to my ears.

I don't know the exact stats, but I swear the Vickers gets a ton of kills. It definitely suppresses notably slower than some of the other guns, but man, can it rack up the kill count.
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Mr. Someguy
8 Sep 2015, 02:04 AM
#23
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 00:58 AMBeefSurge
I think of Soviets at quantity of T34 tanks, and Germans as revolving around heavy machine guns. In German infantry doctrine the main element of firepower was the MG42, compare this to the Soviets or Americans which favored greater individual firepower at the expense of squad based.

In game terms, this should translate to rifle squads/ cons having a greater role in infantry combat than HMGs, with the relationship between Grens and the HMG42 being the opposite.


The German Infantry Squad for most of WW2 was 9 men equipped with 1-2 MP 40's, 6 Kar 98's, and 1 MG 42. In-game this is represented by the MG 42 upgrade for Grenadiers. There were minor variations based on the number of SMG's, G-41/G-43/SVT's, and types of LMG's (34, 42) available, but those are irrelevant here. The less mobile variant that the MG 42 team is based off of is the Heavy Machine Gun Platoon, which wasn't part of an Infantry Squad.

As for the Soviets I'm not sure what you're getting at. The T-34 wasn't the only thing they used, the IS-2 was used as a breakthrough tank to smash a hole in the defenses for the T-34 to exploit. But CoH is too small scale for this to generally be simulated properly.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
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BeefSurge
8 Sep 2015, 02:08 AM
#24
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Generally speaking though an American infantry squad or soviet SMG squad would have more mobile firepower-especially with the soviets the game doesn't abstract this enough.

I see you what you mean with breakthrough and exploitation, and on the IS-2 as well. I'll concede that point; outside of SMGs and grenades being underrepresented the Soviets seem like the most historically accurate army, in terms of how they play.
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Mr. Someguy
8 Sep 2015, 02:17 AM
#25
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 02:08 AMBeefSurge
Generally speaking though an American infantry squad or soviet SMG squad would have more mobile firepower-especially with the soviets the game doesn't abstract this enough.


Partially simulated by not being able to fire on the move with the (most) LMG's, and firing shorter bursts at close range. But otherwise the game treats LMG's like any other weapon, size and weight don't have any bearing in the stats or animations.

The Maxim with it's rapid setup time is probably more accurate to that, but changing all LMG's to behave, mobility-wise, like hand-held Maxims that auto-rotate would probably be too large of a change.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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ThoseDeafMutes
8 Sep 2015, 03:04 AM
#26
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Random aside since we're talking about LMGs, but I think an interesting way to balance it (not really appropriate for the current game since it would be a major change) would be if LMGs got an overall DPS nerf, then had their DPS restored when in cover with a mechanic similar to Tommie/Ostruppen cover buff. Even with the on the move lack of firing I feel like they're still overall too good as a universal upgrade you want to give to every damn squad.
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BeefSurge
8 Sep 2015, 03:16 AM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 03:04 AMThoseDeafMutes
Random aside since we're talking about LMGs, but I think an interesting way to balance it (not really appropriate for the current game since it would be a major change) would be if LMGs got an overall DPS nerf, then had their DPS restored when in cover with a mechanic similar to Tommie/Ostruppen cover buff. Even with the on the move lack of firing I feel like they're still overall too good as a universal upgrade you want to give to every damn squad.


This is never happening but: IMO giving every LMG squad defensive stance, but forcing that squad to manually rotate like a Maxim while on the ground would be the most accurate representation of lmgs.

@MrSomeguy: personally I think that making lmg squads behave like the maxim might be neat. Bipod mounted MG34s, 42s, and DP-28s would be neat support weapons. They might be too narrow in scope for this game though.
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QueenRatchet123
8 Sep 2015, 03:22 AM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2015, 22:29 PMThe Prussian Officer


Vickers also comes way quicker than a Mg34 or a .50 cal.


AND?
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2015, 14:01 PMJohnnyB

There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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Mr. Someguy
8 Sep 2015, 03:31 AM
#29
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 03:04 AMThoseDeafMutes
Random aside since we're talking about LMGs, but I think an interesting way to balance it (not really appropriate for the current game since it would be a major change) would be if LMGs got an overall DPS nerf, then had their DPS restored when in cover with a mechanic similar to Tommie/Ostruppen cover buff. Even with the on the move lack of firing I feel like they're still overall too good as a universal upgrade you want to give to every damn squad.


The problem with that is it would hurt Grenadiers more than anyone else, because Ostheer cannot create cover under normal circumstances. It would benefit USF the most because Riflemen can wield LMG's and create their own cover.

Also doesn't make sense visually since out of cover model goes prone to fire, but in cover model stands.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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Alexzandvar
8 Sep 2015, 03:47 AM
#30
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After the .50 cal fixes/Dhsk fixes the MG34 will probably take the title as most useless machine gun.
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BeefSurge
8 Sep 2015, 03:57 AM
#31
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 03:47 AMAlexzandvar
After the .50 cal fixes/Dhsk fixes the MG34 will probably take the title as most useless machine gun.


I mean, it can be useful because OKW has the most MP. But yeah it's the worst.
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RMMLz
8 Sep 2015, 07:30 AM
#32
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Off topic, the only thing that bugs me is their portrait. Both for Vickers and HMG34. Is it that hard to, I don't know, add a belts or something?

http://dadmand-art.ir/
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The Prussian Officer
8 Sep 2015, 07:49 AM
#33
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2015, 22:37 PMFiresparks


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d3aYe4-ykAW2z_vzqR51vXkl1kO7YuXTLNNpy3R509g/edit#gid=1409942215

the mg42 get the awesome incendiary round at vet 1, and the vicker's vet1 bonus require it to be in a building or the tommies to build a 50 mp trench.

the mg42 get +30% weapon suppression and the vicker get +30% weapon penetration. If I want the mg42 to kill vehicle at vet 2 I can just pop the ability.

the Weapon penetration bonus on the vicker is kind of meh. 2.47\2.08\1.69 is hardly useful against anything more durable than the 222.


and the hmg42 arrive at the same time as the vicker. The .50cal isn't even the vicker's direct opponent.


I know but op claimed that vickers is worst mg, .50 cal and mg34 are worse than vickers
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The Prussian Officer
8 Sep 2015, 07:52 AM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 03:22 AMQueenRatchet123


AND?


Thus its impact is bigger and quicker than mg34 or .50 cal. Still doesn't justify its cost, but op claiming vickers as a bad mg is a little far fetched. Mg34 and .50 cal are worse. Up close the vickers murders infantry.
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RetroInferno
8 Sep 2015, 12:24 PM
#35
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2015, 21:48 PMFiresparks
the vickers isn't worth 280 mp. Its dps isn't that amazing while its suppression feels significantly weaker than the other mg.

By comparison the hmg42 will suppress and kill as just good if not better while being 20 mp cheaper.


I also remeber how my P4 got supressed only by getting shot a few seconds by the HMg42, while in another game my Vickers could barely kill infantry in red cover.
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Katitof
8 Sep 2015, 12:34 PM
#36
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Sep 2015, 03:47 AMAlexzandvar
After the .50 cal fixes/Dhsk fixes the MG34 will probably take the title as most useless machine gun.

That is a bad thing how?

Any particular reason for which you believe cheapest MG in game shouldn't be worst?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ItchyGonorrhea
23 Feb 2016, 16:41 PM
#37
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Posts: 107

A bit of a necro, but:

Does anyone have the suppression times of the vickers and the 42? The other HMGs are welcome as well.

How do you calculate these? And how important are accuracy and rate of fire?
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vietnamabc
23 Feb 2016, 17:12 PM
#38
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MG42 have best suppression, that alone make it the best HMG in the game, regarding DPS, MG42 load incendiaries will melt inf so fast vickers can only dream of.
Vickers can only be good if the map have some good building to garrison it inside, otherwise I'll take MG42 everyday.
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Skabinsk
23 Feb 2016, 17:31 PM
#39
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Vickers is high damage, low suppression. Vet one is godly in buildings

MG-42 is high surpression, medium damage. MG-42 vet 1 is godly

USF 50 cal (largest bullet) garbage damage and suppression, dies to everything

Maxim lol 6 man crews

MG-34 at least it has godly vet 1 and cheapest MG
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Mr.Smith
23 Feb 2016, 17:36 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post23 Feb 2016, 17:31 PMSkabinsk
Vickers is high damage, low suppression. Vet one is godly in buildings

MG-42 is high surpression, medium damage. MG-42 vet 1 is godly

USF 50 cal (largest bullet) garbage damage and suppression, dies to everything

Maxim lol 6 man crews

MG-34 at least it has godly vet 1 and cheapest MG


50cal is the worst of the worst when it comes to suppression.

MG34 actually out-suppresses both Vickers and 50cal when it hits vet2. Neither the Vickers nor the 50cal really receive veterancy that is useful for their suppression role.

Also, I thought that 50cal outdamages Vickers on an open field?
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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