*Anyway, zookas and schrecks are a start-game / middle game matter. The thing that is affecting the meta and may create inbalance on some maps is the thikness of Axis supertanks, the start game and middle game is still dominated by Allied, even if Axis have better hand held AT weapons. So nerfing these weapons won't bring any good I think.
This really isn't true in my opinion.
See the super tanks are indeed thick from the front, but if you get a flank they go down pretty easy. Problem is you can't get a flank when your 480 HP Jackson gets 1 shot from the 4 volks supporting the Jagdtiger (as an example).
Nerfing Axis hand held AT would indeed (in my opinion) help the meta, as it would allow for medium tanks to flank the Tigers/Panthers/Jagdtigers/Elefants/King Tigers and not get A-moved by the supporting infantry.
But do 1v1 Ost players really use PzGr squads that much, let alone for AT? I barely see any people build them in 4v4
They sometimes are. And a nerf is a nerf. Something would definitely be wrong if Wehr was nerfed again without good compensation coming along (like say, revert Pak's rof to pre-nerf, or give it it's green cover back). People can't just step in the forum, ask nerf after nerf towards axis (because of OKW) and then say "nevermind Wehrmacht is the shittiest faction of the game, they are teaming up with OKW anyway". There are people that prefer the Wehrmacht faction, and they somehow deserve to play something that is not a pushover.
I fear that the more you buff the infantry antitank weapons, the more it encourages blobbing or infantry spam against tanks mid-lategame. Let's be honest, Soviet tanks for example are by no means a threat to volks blob except for the heaviest ones.
To me, infantry antitank weapons should be hard counter to light tanks and armored cars while soft countering medium tanks by ambushes and clever manouvers. Panzerfaust and conscript AT nade are such weapons.With high chance to drop I'd say panzergrenadiers with double schrecks fall into this category too.
If you buff zooks to schreck level will we see spam of zooked riflemen and paras running around the map like we currently see blobs of volks and obers?
I fear that the more you buff the infantry antitank weapons, the more it encourages blobbing or infantry spam against tanks mid-lategame. Let's be honest, Soviet tanks for example are by no means a threat to volks blob except for the heaviest ones.
To me, infantry antitank weapons should be hard counter to light tanks and armored cars while soft countering medium tanks by ambushes and clever manouvers. Panzerfaust and conscript AT nade are such weapons.With high chance to drop I'd say panzergrenadiers with double schrecks fall into this category too.
If you buff zooks to schreck level will we see spam of zooked riflemen and paras running around the map like we currently see blobs of volks and obers?
We have been over this. No one is asking for zooks to be as good as schreks. We just think the disparity between them is too large.
I've noticed that there seems to be quite a disparity in terms of infantry based anti-tank capabilities between the Allied and Axis factions. A lot of people have commented on the difficulties Allied players have when trying to take down Axis vehicles late game.
Now people talk about paks/zis/raketenwerfer/57 mm at gun this at gun that but I think the real problem is the huge usefulness of the ubiquitous panzerschreck (at least on OST side I have no problem with PG having this but for a core cheap infantry in the form of volks (OKW) it is turning the tank battle way in favour of axis by having 1 or 2 squads hanging around).
For those not interested in numbers the TLDR version of this is Axis infantry can scare off or kill Allied vehicles much more easily than Allied infantry can do the same to Axis tanks. I believe this is due to the panzerschreck performing as it does at long range.
So lets look at the statistics of the Panzerschreck vs. the Bazooka (taken from Coh2stats if these are wrong please correct me).
Panzerschreck penetration: 180/170/160 Damage: 120 Cost: 120 for 2 (OST), 90 for 1 (OKW)
We will be using the long range penetration value as I feel this is where the problem stems from.
List goes as follows: Unit name: front armour/rear armour, hit-points, Minimum hits to kill, chance to penetrate, average amount of hits to kill (Penetration+damage value vs. Armour+ hit-points)
Soviet vehicles;
Non-doc
Katyusha: 7/5, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
M3: 5.4/4.2, HP:200, minimum 2 hits to kill , 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
t70: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
M5: 28.5/20, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
su76: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Su85: 140/70, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/76: 150/75, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
Something of note as to why I believe Soviets rely on call-in vehicles so much, even from furthest range all non-doc Soviet vehicles will always be penetrated by panzerschreck. Now lets look at doctrinal vehicles
Doctrinal
Soviet Sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/85: 160/80, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
kv8: 240/145, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 67% penetration, average 11 hits to kill
kv1: 270/165, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 59% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
kv2: 300/180, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 53% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
isu 152: 310/155, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 52% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
is2: 375/205, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 43% penetration, average 21 hits to kill
So as you can see it is only doctrinal Soviet tanks that can even deflect a panzerschreck round from long range i.e. 160 penetration. I think this has a lot to do with why Soviets find non-doctrinal tanks so lacking.
Now lets look at the USF
USF vehicles;
Non-doc
Ambulance: 4/1.8, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
m20: 16/11, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
AA halftrack: 15/10, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m21 mortar: 20/8.4, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m5 stuart: 80/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m8 scott: 70/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m36: 130/60, HP:480, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
m4 sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
Again all USF non-doc Vehicles are 100% penetrated at long range. Late game this really shows as USF and I believe this may contribute to their late game problems.
Doctrinal
Dodge: 5.2/4, HP:180, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Greyhound: 28.5/14.25, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Priest: 60/30, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m10: 120/57.5, HP:400, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Sherman bulldozer: 200/80, HP:720, 6 hits to kill, 80% penetration, average 8 shots to kill
Easy8: 215/95, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 74% penetration, average 9 hits to kill
Only Easy-8 and Bulldozer Sherman can deflect panzershcreck from long range, only 2 vehicles doctrinal/non-doctrinal included.
OST
Non-doc
Panzerwerfer: 20/10, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
222: 9/4.5, HP:200, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
251: 9/4.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stug III G: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 79% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
Ostwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Panzer IV: 180/90, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 61% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
Brummbar: 260/105, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 42% penetration, average 24 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill
So you can see bazookas can deal with light vehicles well and medium vehicles to a much lesser extent.
Doctrinal
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Stug III E: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits, penetration 79%, average 7 hits to kill
Tiger: 300/180, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 36 hits to kill
Tiger ace: 300/180, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 44 hits to kill
Elefant: 400/150, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 27.5% penetration, average 48 hits to kill
And last but not least the OKW
OKW
non-doc
Kubel: 4/2, HP:190, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Flak halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stuka: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
IR halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Panzer 2 Luchs: 55/35, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Jagdpanzer IV: 230/80, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 48% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill
Sturmtiger: 220/110, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 50% penetration, average 32 hits to kill
King tiger: 425/225, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits, 26% penetration, average 62 hits to kill
Doctrinal
OStwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Jagdtiger: 525/150, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 21% penetration, average 77 hits to kill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny comparison
t70, su76, USF AA halftrack, stuart, scott and priest 3 hits to kill from schreck vs. Kubel 3 hits to kill
with bazooka. (Greyhound takes 2....)
In summary I think the long range values of the panzerschreck (Damage 120, Penetration: 160), give the Axis (more so OKW) too much of an advantage in the late game. All Soviet non-doctrinal vehicles and all but 2 of the USF vehicles will be 100% penetrated at max range, this may play a part as to why Soviet gameplay is dominated by call-ins (as well as the fuel disparity between call-ins and tier built tanks
Your only problem is that you are obviously not keeping your infantry alive and getting vet. If you had a BAR blob of rifles or some cons with ppsh or even shocks, then volks with Shreks are not a problem, therefore tank battles should not be a problem for you. See the flow on effect?
Schreck: High penetration, high damage, low accuracy.
Bazooka: Medium penetration, medium damage, accuracy better than schreck.
PTRS: Shit penetration, shit damage, good accuracy and for example daze for 0,5s if penetrated or something like that which makes PTRS worth to use.
CoH2 balance is like:
Schreck: Great in everything
Bazooka: Weak in everything
PTRS:
This can be said about everything from inf to heavy vehicles.
It should be like Axis, the heaviest, best penetration and damage but Allies the fastest and the most accurate but it's not.
It's Axis the heaviest, best penetration, best damage, the fastest with the biggest impact in the game (idk what about accuracy).
Your only problem is that you are obviously not keeping your infantry alive and getting vet. If you had a BAR blob of rifles or some cons with ppsh or even shocks, then volks with Shreks are not a problem, therefore tank battles should not be a problem for you. See the flow on effect?
If only vet 5 Volks were a 5 man squad with .5751 received accuracy to survive and OKW had an elite Infantry squad that melts Riflemen.
Panzergrenadier Schrecks are actually not a problem, haven't been for a long time. They are an expensive specialist squad and spamming them, while annoyingly powerful against medium armour, can be countered effectively.
It is the Volks Schreck blob that is the problem.
Volks benefit from Schrecks more than any single other unit in the game would. They are the cheapest combat infantry in the game, a meatshield with low DPS per entity. Schrecks make them stay a good meatshield while also being able to chase off vehicles. They have insanely good veterancy bonuses. And here's the kicker - guess what Schrecks do? Allow Volks to inflict large amounts of damage to much more expensive units (vehicles and tanks) - which translates to insanely quick progression of veterancy.
There is no other infantry unit in the game that can be given that much XP earning potential - other than Panzergrenadiers, which are an expensive T2 specialist.
There is literally no reason to NOT equip your Volks squad with a Schreck if you have 90 ammo to spare. It just enhances the unit in so many ways it's not even funny.
Granted, OKW is sorely lacking in AT snares, and needs something to compensate. But I think that a t1-available single Panzerschreck upgrade should be enough of a compensation for lack of fausts in the early game against vehicles. It's not as if OKW is struggling against tanks late game.
For a classic case of Relic starting strong with the design, then forgetting all reason and just pissing on their game without a care in the world, click the spoiler below:
Summary : Schrecks belong on Sturmpios. Bam, problem solved. You want a 5 Schreck blob? No problem, that will be 1600MP and 45 popcap pls, no tax included kthxbye.
IMO the main problem is the mind bogglingly stupid fact that Schrecks (also Zooks) are guided missiles. They should not be homing and NOT HIT MOVING TARGETS WHATSOEVER.
Panzergrenadier Schrecks are actually not a problem, haven't been for a long time. They are an expensive specialist squad and spamming them, while annoyingly powerful against medium armour, can be countered effectively.
It is the Volks Schreck blob that is the problem.
Summary : Schrecks belong on Sturmpios. Bam, problem solved. You want a 5 Schreck blob? No problem, that will be 1600MP and 45 popcap pls, no tax included kthxbye.
I completely agree with you, although i didnt know about the part that the schrecks were meant to be on sturmpios the idea came to me yesterday that this would be a great solution. 4 man squads, easier to kill by tanks so they couldnt just A-move into allied tanks, expensive in manpower. something like the rangers with thompsons in vCOH.
heh and how are the okw going to deal with the m20 then hey? its already a problem early game. fine you want shreks on pio give volks better dps and panzerfaust.
heh and how are the okw going to deal with the m20 then hey? its already a problem early game. fine you want shreks on pio give volks better dps and panzerfaust.
Oh, you know, with T0 hard AT weapons or 5 min puma?
heh and how are the okw going to deal with the m20 then hey? its already a problem early game. fine you want shreks on pio give volks better dps and panzerfaust.
obious troll is obvious. i dont see why the move of panzerschreck to sturmpios has anything to do with the M20 rush? you still have the same panzerschreck just on the sturms and not on the volks. and you have a T0 AT gun
heh and how are the okw going to deal with the m20 then hey? its already a problem early game. fine you want shreks on pio give volks better dps and panzerfaust.
Now think how USF have to deal with kubel since the first minute (not 3-5mins like m20).
IMO the main problem is the mind bogglingly stupid fact that Schrecks (also Zooks) are guided missiles. They should not be homing and NOT HIT MOVING TARGETS WHATSOEVER.
Well, if they "roll" a hit then I think it is good that they hit even if we have an animation looking a bit wierd, that goes for tank and at guns as well. If they roll a miss (dont know the % chances here, naybe beed to increase risk to roll miss) then scatter should be increased in my opinion, so we see more misses at long range.
But like written earlier, longer reload time for shreks, less survability for vet volks, and bazookas which are cheaper and with a tad higher damage, that is all that is needed, preferable pgrens should keep shreks as is, better trained than late war volks in general so only makes sense, as well as keeping them relevant in game.
Oh, you know, with T0 hard AT weapons or 5 min puma?
And these kind of statements are about as stupid as it can get. As i have said before i dont really have an issue with shreks going to pio's if volks going to get fausts. But since you are so brilliant why dont you post your okw games where your puchpen is going to deal with the m20. Now im done with this stupidity relic is not going to cater to this because you have no idea how ridiculous op light vehicles will become to the okw if your suggestion will come through.
Now im done with this stupidity relic is not going to cater to this because you have no idea how ridiculous op light vehicles will become to the okw if your suggestion will come through.
Do you have some insight about that? Tell us more!
The intresting thing from my point of view is that for some reason lots of people, in this case including the developers at Relic, automatically assume German equipment allways is superiour to Allied or Soviet equipment.
The Bazooka is a prime example. Its actually a better weapon than the Panzerschreck. Its lighter, easier to handle and can effectively take out any German tank. Mediums and medium tank based AFV head on and even the heavierst from the sides and rear.
For some reason in CoH2 it even struggles to be effective at flank shots. Against the heavier tanks is completly useless.
The Bazooka also is a better multi purpose weapon with different ammo types available.
This might be intresting for rebalancing.
IMHO the Bazooka should at least have a decent chace to penerate medium armor (P4) head on. Flank and rear shots should have a better than decent chance against any German vehicle. Panthers, Tiger and Co being more or less immune to them over the frontal arc is ok. But shots at the rear armor should really be effective. Penetrating with allomst every hit and with a high crit chance.
Giving the Bazooka the ability to lauch WP rockets could also be intresting. How it should work in game needs testing. Could be a smoke 'nade, a fire 'nade or a mixture like the Obers ability.
All rocket based AT should be inacurate at long range. Hit chance against a typical medium tank 75/50/25 % or so. Maybe better at short and even worse at long range. This would make AT infantry a last line of defense and not walking PAKs. Would underline both roles that of the AT guns and that of AT inf. At short range in tight terrain the latter will be deadly in open terrain the will be much less effective.
The PTRS should get a range advantage and be more accurate. After all its a rifle and not a rocket. This could outweight its low damage. Turing them into a long range AT harrasment weapon.
Another option would be the ability to fire tungsten core API ammo. Wich would work about the same as it does with the MG42. Increase damage and penetration for a short period of time. Not enough to kill a P4 with one activation on one squad but enough to drive it off.
The only real advantage the Panzerschreck has over weapons like the Bazooka or the PTRS is its penetration. Wich is simply based on warhead size. The laucher itself is a very clumsy and heavy weapon. The laucher its allmost double the weight of the Bazooka. So how about the Panzerschreck slowing the equiped Squad down?
The Schreck is also infamous for its huge firing signature. Wich is true for all rocket based weapons but with the Schreck its worse than with most others. How about the unit wich fired a Schreck getting some sort of debuff for a short time after firing? Received accuracy for example. They simply attract a lot of attention. Could even be an option for Panzerfaust and Bazooka using squads too. This again would underline their role as short range tank hunters and not long range general purpose weapons. Maybe combine it with a "rockets target vehicle only" button.
I also find it strange that HEAT warheads loose penetration at range. This is not the case in reality. Hasn't been in WW2 and isn't now. If its about balance why not handle it by accuracy. This is the major shortcoming of these weapons. Neither the Panzerschreck nor the Bazooka will reliably hit a standing tank behond 100 m. Even though the rocket will fly much further. A skilled user usually would try to get withing 50-75 m and go for a flank shot. Even with the Panzerschreck.
Both the Bazooka and the Panzerschreck a specialist weapons. Veterancy really should make a difference with them. Maybe even the penetration could get better with veterancy because the user tries to hit where it really hurts. In this case changing the penetration profile to one dependent on range since the weapon isn't accurate enough to do so behond medium range.
There are lots of possible options without abandoning the historical roots of the game completly. They just have to be used IMHO.
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