The imbalance between Allied and Axis Infantry Anti-tank

I've noticed that there seems to be quite a disparity in terms of infantry based anti-tank capabilities between the Allied and Axis factions. A lot of people have commented on the difficulties Allied players have when trying to take down Axis vehicles late game.

Now people talk about paks/zis/raketenwerfer/57 mm at gun this at gun that but I think the real problem is the huge usefulness of the ubiquitous panzerschreck (at least on OST side I have no problem with PG having this but for a core cheap infantry in the form of volks (OKW) it is turning the tank battle way in favour of axis by having 1 or 2 squads hanging around).

For those not interested in numbers the TLDR version of this is Axis infantry can scare off or kill Allied vehicles much more easily than Allied infantry can do the same to Axis tanks. I believe this is due to the panzerschreck performing as it does at long range.

So lets look at the statistics of the Panzerschreck vs. the Bazooka (taken from Coh2stats if these are wrong please correct me).

Panzerschreck penetration: 180/170/160 Damage: 120 Cost: 120 for 2 (OST), 90 for 1 (OKW)

Bazooka penetration: 130/120/110 Damage: 80 Cost: 60

We will be using the long range penetration value as I feel this is where the problem stems from.

List goes as follows: Unit name: front armour/rear armour, hit-points, Minimum hits to kill, chance to penetrate, average amount of hits to kill (Penetration+damage value vs. Armour+ hit-points)

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Panzerschreck vs Allied vehicles

Soviet vehicles;
Non-doc
Katyusha: 7/5, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
M3: 5.4/4.2, HP:200, minimum 2 hits to kill , 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
t70: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
M5: 28.5/20, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
su76: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Su85: 140/70, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/76: 150/75, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill

Something of note as to why I believe Soviets rely on call-in vehicles so much, even from furthest range all non-doc Soviet vehicles will always be penetrated by panzerschreck. Now lets look at doctrinal vehicles

Doctrinal
Soviet Sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/85: 160/80, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
kv8: 240/145, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 67% penetration, average 11 hits to kill
kv1: 270/165, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 59% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
kv2: 300/180, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 53% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
isu 152: 310/155, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 52% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
is2: 375/205, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 43% penetration, average 21 hits to kill

So as you can see it is only doctrinal Soviet tanks that can even deflect a panzerschreck round from long range i.e. 160 penetration. I think this has a lot to do with why Soviets find non-doctrinal tanks so lacking.

Now lets look at the USF

USF vehicles;
Non-doc
Ambulance: 4/1.8, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
m20: 16/11, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
AA halftrack: 15/10, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m21 mortar: 20/8.4, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m5 stuart: 80/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m8 scott: 70/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m36: 130/60, HP:480, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
m4 sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill

Again all USF non-doc Vehicles are 100% penetrated at long range. Late game this really shows as USF and I believe this may contribute to their late game problems.

Doctrinal
Dodge: 5.2/4, HP:180, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Greyhound: 28.5/14.25, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Priest: 60/30, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m10: 120/57.5, HP:400, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Sherman bulldozer: 200/80, HP:720, 6 hits to kill, 80% penetration, average 8 shots to kill
Easy8: 215/95, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 74% penetration, average 9 hits to kill


Only Easy-8 and Bulldozer Sherman can deflect panzershcreck from long range, only 2 vehicles doctrinal/non-doctrinal included.

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Now lets look at bazooka vs. the Axis

Bazooka vs. Axis vehicles

OST
Non-doc
Panzerwerfer: 20/10, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
222: 9/4.5, HP:200, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
251: 9/4.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stug III G: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 79% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
Ostwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Panzer IV: 180/90, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 61% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
Brummbar: 260/105, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 42% penetration, average 24 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill

So you can see bazookas can deal with light vehicles well and medium vehicles to a much lesser extent.

Doctrinal
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Stug III E: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits, penetration 79%, average 7 hits to kill
Tiger: 300/180, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 36 hits to kill
Tiger ace: 300/180, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 44 hits to kill
Elefant: 400/150, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 27.5% penetration, average 48 hits to kill

And last but not least the OKW

OKW
non-doc
Kubel: 4/2, HP:190, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Flak halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stuka: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
IR halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Panzer 2 Luchs: 55/35, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Jagdpanzer IV: 230/80, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 48% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill
Sturmtiger: 220/110, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 50% penetration, average 32 hits to kill
King tiger: 425/225, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits, 26% penetration, average 62 hits to kill

Doctrinal
OStwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Jagdtiger: 525/150, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 21% penetration, average 77 hits to kill
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Funny comparison
t70, su76, USF AA halftrack, stuart, scott and priest 3 hits to kill from schreck vs. Kubel 3 hits to kill
with bazooka. (Greyhound takes 2....)


In summary I think the long range values of the panzerschreck (Damage 120, Penetration: 160), give the Axis (more so OKW) too much of an advantage in the late game. All Soviet non-doctrinal vehicles and all but 2 of the USF vehicles will be 100% penetrated at max range, this may play a part as to why Soviet gameplay is dominated by call-ins (as well as the fuel disparity between call-ins and tier built tanks

Wow, someone has actually backed up his claims with numbers. Too bad I'm too lazy and tired now to read a wall of text, will do it later.

Should have put there PTRS for hilarity(since relic believes PTRS is so important that 3 different units can have it-guards, conscripts and partisans).

Wow, someone has actually backed up his claims with numbers. Too bad I'm too lazy and tired now to read a wall of text, will do it later.

Haha yeah the bolded is the TLDR version if you want to read that as it is a largish post. I added the stats just for those interested.

@HardworkingBulldozer, let's try to avoid insults etc. seeing as we are all members of a forum about one specific video game, telling someone to get a life is like throwing stones in a glasshouse. Anyway I just added the stats as part of the thread (you know rather than just give a baseless opinion with no room for discussion).

@Katitof I was going to but it would just depress me haha, would be funny to see the average amount of hits needed though...

Very well put. Would definitely benefit late game balance seeing has how prevalent the OKW and Pzrgren rocket upgrade it. I don't feel like a price change should happen nor should it be removed but you do point out an interesting problem. I never thought to look at the long range damage.

Now if only relic can look into the issue or confirm they are trying to resolve it.

Interesting stuff, good write up. Kind of showcases how bad zooks are, especially considering how often they just flat out miss regardless of their crappy penetration. I too would like to see the ptrs numbers just for the luls.

Very well put. Would definitely benefit late game balance seeing has how prevalent the OKW and Pzrgren rocket upgrade it. I don't feel like a price change should happen nor should it be removed but you do point out an interesting problem. I never thought to look at the long range damage.

Now if only relic can look into the issue or confirm they are trying to resolve it.

I liked how in Coh1 the handheld AT was much less accurate at range, that may be one way to mitigate the impact of these weapons. I agree price change wouldn't do much to change it, one thing I did find strange is that 160 is basically the magic penetration value against allied vehicles if you look at their front armour.

PTRS vs. Axis vehicles

Damage: 40 Penetration: 100.0/85.0/70.0. Lets take the long range value as we did for the other two.

OST
Non-doc
Panzerwerfer: 20/10, HP:160, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
222: 9/4.5, HP:200, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
251: 9/4.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Stug III G: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 50% penetration, average 20 hits to kill
Ostwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 64% penetration, average 25 hits to kill
Panzer IV: 180/90, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 39% penetration, average 42 hits to kill
Brummbar: 260/105, HP:800, minimum 20 hits to kill, 27% penetration, average 75 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 20 hits to kill, 22% penetration, average 91 hits to kill


Doctrinal
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 10 hits to kill
Stug III E: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 10 hits, penetration 50%, average 20 hits to kill
Tiger: 300/180, HP:1040, minimum 26 hits to kill, 23% penetration, average 114 hits to kill
Tiger ace: 300/180, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits to kill, 23% penetration, average 140 hits to kill
Elefant: 400/150, HP:1040, minimum 26 hits to kill, 17.5% penetration, average 149 hits to kill


OKW
non-doc
Kubel: 4/2, HP:190, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Flak halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Stuka: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
IR halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Panzer 2 Luchs: 55/35, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 10 hits to kill
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 10 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 10 hits to kill
Jagdpanzer IV: 230/80, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 30% penetration, average 54 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 20 hits to kill, 22% penetration, average 91 hits to kill
Sturmtiger: 220/110, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits to kill, 32% penetration, average 100 hits to kill
King tiger: 425/225, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits, 16% penetration, average 200 hits to kill

Doctrinal
OStwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 16 hits to kill, 64% penetration, average 25 hits to kill
Jagdtiger: 525/150, HP:1280, minimum 32 hits to kill, 13% penetration, average 247 hits to kill

So there you have it the PTRS and it's stats.
Looking at this I can see why late game is a problem for Allies. Much like the bazooka, the PTRS is only made for light vehicles with some ability against mediums. But as the game draws on more heavies hit the field and these weapons become much less useful as opposed to the schreck.

"seeing as we are all members of a forum about one specific video game, telling someone to get a life is like throwing stones in a glasshouse"

True dat, however we don't need to go sherlock holmes and and search for exact numbers and academic proofs etc. Pgrens with Pshrecks are over performing and relic is actually fixing this issue. After the last major patch, the likelihood of even a t70 wiping a volk squd is not unlikely.

Great analysis, thank you for you efforts.

I clearly demonstrate that the shrecks are «a bit» overpowered...

What strong points the US/Sov have or what weakness the Axis have that can compensate for such major advantage ?

Lets discuss it !

Panzerschreck long-range accuracy is very good. It often hits from long-range (and penetrates) vehicles that are closing in. That is why flanking Axis heavies are easier said than done. You go in for a flank > get pulverized by schrecks.

"seeing as we are all members of a forum about one specific video game, telling someone to get a life is like throwing stones in a glasshouse"

True dat, however we don't need to go sherlock holmes and and search for exact numbers and academic proofs etc. Pgrens with Pshrecks are over performing and relic is actually fixing this issue. After the last major patch, the likelihood of even a t70 wiping a volk squd is not unlikely.

Well imo it was necessary to go above the call of duty, since trolls would just go apeshit over the lack of numbers and stats

I think Pgrens should only get one shreck, with no cost reduction.

And volks should get the Faust ability instead and Pshreck removed totally. Just fix the Rak43.

@WJ: Don't think the developer would take trolls seriously, they probably know whats broken and just reminding them would be sufficient IMO. Fair points though, no hard feelings. Feel free to go deep and deeper lol and discuss statistics.

I honestly don't think the shrek needs to be nerfed at all; I'd much rather see zooks and the ptrs buffed in some way. A couple of patches ago they nerfed bazooka accuracy because they were too frequently sniping infantry (I guess) but now, something's got to give. Bazookas have bad accuracy, bad penetration and mediocre damage. A big part of why the Ami late game is so rough is that zooks just aren't an effective upgrade for supporting AT guns or jacksons and often only serve to just gut the AI performance of the squad that recieves them.

If bazooka remains unchanged, its only worth of 40 munitions.. For 60 muni it should be similar to Panzerschrek.

"seeing as we are all members of a forum about one specific video game, telling someone to get a life is like throwing stones in a glasshouse"

True dat, however we don't need to go sherlock holmes and and search for exact numbers and academic proofs etc. Pgrens with Pshrecks are over performing and relic is actually fixing this issue. After the last major patch, the likelihood of even a t70 wiping a volk squd is not unlikely.

Well anecdotal evidence has it's place, I agree with you to an extent. If it's obvious something is wrong then it should be changed, Really I put in those stats to avoid somebody posting false info for one side of the argument or the other.

Its funny how in this game, better equipment is more readily available and seen more often than crappy equipment.

One would think it would be raining PTRS instead of seeing volk schreck blobs nearly every game...

Anyways, super duper kudos for doing something i always wanted to prove.

That post looks like a lot of work.

I agree with the point that the handheld AT disparity encourages the use of allied call-in units. Then again, considering asymetric balance and all that, I don't think the handheld AT gap needs to change. I feel like in terms of price, performance and availability, while also considering other AT abilities and units, Soviet and USF handheld AT is where it needs to be.

USF can potentially equip a lot more AT on its squads to even the odds.

Soviets compensate for their lack of AT with relatively cheap and spammable mines.

To me, the real problem lies with allied stationary AT which is also under-performing despite facing heavier armor.

I could also live with allied units having worse versions of everything compared to their Axis counterparts if they had the economy to make up for it. To some extent that's how vCoh struck balance between US and Ost. Replicating that model could work.

Currently though, Allied armor and AT performance is poorly reflected in their cost and their pop-cap.

That post looks like a lot of work.

I agree with the point that the handheld AT disparity encourages the use of allied call-in units. Then again, considering asymetric balance and all that, I don't think the handheld AT gap needs to change. I feel like in terms of price, performance and availability, while also considering other AT abilities and units, Soviet and USF handheld AT is where it needs to be.

USF can potentially equip a lot more AT on its squads to even the odds.

Soviets compensate for their lack of AT with relatively cheap and spammable mines.

To me, the real problem lies with allied stationary AT which is also under-performing despite facing heavier armor.

I could also live with allied units having worse versions of everything compared to their Axis counterparts if they had the economy to make up for it. To some extent that's how vCoh struck balance between US and Ost. Replicating that model could work.

Currently though, Allied armor and AT performance is poorly reflected in their cost and their pop-cap.

This buzz word from Relic ''asymmetrical balance'' is used a lot on these forums. What justifies the disparity in handheld AT between the factions? What advantage in terms of dealing with tanks do the Allies have in comparison? What disadvantages do the Axis have?

USF can equip more AT but at a higher cost (more zooks are needed to get similar AT capability) and you will be giving up anti-infantry capability for this either in munitions that could be used for BARs or just giving up a rifle for a bazooka. Either way as USF you will have to spend more munitions to get comparable AT.

In regards to the Soviets, I agree to an extent. Yes mines are very useful against Axis armour but what about when you are pushing forward? Once that Axis heavy sets up in an area it will be very hard to shift it, think about as Soviet AT gun is your best option against something like the Jagdtiger. If the Jagdtiger is unsupported then yes you can flank with tanks but if there are a few schrecks around let alone a pak no dice.

Basically I would just like to know what the AT advantages of the Allies are to give Axis such a huge bonus in terms of the panzerschrecks AT capability.

Then again, considering asymetric balance and all that, I don't think the handheld AT gap needs to change.

Asymmetrical balance means different factions have different means to deal with opponents, not weaker. This argument of yours is extremely popular within axis player lobby as they are the ones ending up with superior equipment, which isn't really justified enough by cost or performance difference.

Wehr shrecks cost 120mun, USF zookas too, its not asymmetrical balance, its bad balance.

I don't think it's a case of the PanzerShrek being overpowered as it's rather inline with the strength of AT guns and tanks. It has a role and purpose in the counter system and dynamic which it fills... completely unlike Allied handheld AT. It's an issue of Bazookas and PTRS really underperforming and being completely not viable. The only thing they can work against is light vehicles, which even then light vehicles are able to avoid them given their fast speed/acceleration and their small target size causing Bazookas and PTRS to miss frequently so there's rarely any kill potential.

Both the PTRS and Bazookas are in serious need of a buff to not only put them in line with Panzer Shreks, despite versing factions with much stronger Tanks. But mainly to just put them in line with AT Guns and Tanks and to actually give them some purpose. Bazookas or Guards should be able to counter Dedicated Tank destroyers such as the JagdPanzer IV, Elefant or JagdTiger for example. But they just don't penetrate anywhere near enough to actually make them ever worth building. Not even against medium vehicles like a Panzer IV or Panther.

Bazooka would be easy to buff in terms of just giving it either extra damage and/or penetration and/or accuracy (But not in a way that it gibs infantry all the time)

The PTRS is in serious need of some kind of buff, as they are just so incredibly lousy at the moment. Guards are nothing but button fodder in terms of anti tank. Since it's an anti tank rifle, buffing their damage and penetration to actually make them viable and useful against tanks would seem a bit weird. Another cool option would be to make Guards have a munitions upgrade that then gives all 6 members in the squad PTRS rifles, removing their anti infantry damage almost entirely, and then perhaps replacing their Frag grenades with AT grenades. That would make Guards actually work against Tanks, and not make them too spammable, but even then they'd probably need a slight penetration buff. It would also be great if the DP upgrade removed the two PTRS in favour of more Rifle damage would be great. A Guard squad should be able to form an Anti tank squad with PTRS or anti infantry with DP's.

That being said, the accessibility of Shreks on Volks Grenadiers combined with their insane Vet 4 and 5 bonuses and how quickly they will rack up that veterency with PanzerShrek shots is definitely a problem breaking the late game tank battles. Volks Grenadiers get a grand total of 3 received accuracy bonus reductions through Vet, causing Vet 5 Shreks squads to be practically unkillable by any kind of Allied tanks other than the ISU.

Meanwhile for Wehrmacht the inaccessibility, low squad count and expensive reinforce cost on PGrens makes them fine for their potency.