mg34 needs a price increase or a small nerf

Currently the mg34 performs better than the mg42 but is the cheapest and requires no tech while being available at 1cp.
Suggestion are : price increase to 240mp
or change to 2cp
Or slight nerf to bring it inline with its price, cp and teching requirements.

Thoughts?

Yeah,

Aggree

mg34 or maxim which one would you choose in a fight?

When standing somewhere far in the back in a position where it is unlikely to get flanked or the enemy doesn't expect it, generally the MG34 unless the reloading thing that I described happens. If I want to have machine guns in the front line or in buildings etc. then the Maxim. If I was spamming machine guns then obviously Maxims...

If I have to pick one without knowing the situation before, then I would pick the Maxim.

mg34, all the time, no contest. bigger arc, instant pin, equal range. firing from fog is the name of the game, there's no other hmg like the mg34.

Average (over all ranges) suppression per second
MG42 - 0.0892
MG34 - 0.0978

Average (over all ranges) damage per second
MG42 - 14.050
MG34 - 10.570

Arc size
MG42 - 120°
MG34 - 90°

Setup time
MG42 - 3 seconds
MG34 - 2 seconds

Teardown
MG42 - 2.5 seconds
MG34 - 2.5 seconds

Splash suppression radius:
MG42 - 11.5
MG34 - 12

Splash suppression modifiers:
MG42 - 0.8
MG34 - 0.8

I assume there are some bugs. MG34 should roughly suppress as good as the MG42, but deal a lot less damage and have a worse arc. The fact that it's actually suppressing better means it might got unintentionally changed.

Average (over all ranges) suppression per second
MG42 - 0.0892
MG34 - 0.0978

Average (over all ranges) damage per second
MG42 - 14.050
MG34 - 10.570

Arc size
MG42 - 120°
MG34 - 90°

Setup time
MG42 - 3 seconds
MG34 - 2 seconds

Teardown
MG42 - 2.5 seconds
MG34 - 2.5 seconds

Splash suppression radius:
MG42 - 11.5
MG34 - 12

Splash suppression modifiers:
MG42 - 0.8
MG34 - 0.8

I assume there are some bugs. MG34 should roughly suppress as good as the MG42, but deal a lot less damage and have a worse arc. The fact that it's actually suppressing better means it might got unintentionally changed.

that's informative.

ps.s i think mg42 can get a .5 sec set up time reduced.

Average (over all ranges) suppression per second
MG42 - 0.0892
MG34 - 0.0978

Average (over all ranges) damage per second
MG42 - 14.050
MG34 - 10.570

Arc size
MG42 - 120°
MG34 - 90°

Setup time
MG42 - 3 seconds
MG34 - 2 seconds

Teardown
MG42 - 2.5 seconds
MG34 - 2.5 seconds

Splash suppression radius:
MG42 - 11.5
MG34 - 12

Splash suppression modifiers:
MG42 - 0.8
MG34 - 0.8

I assume there are some bugs. MG34 should roughly suppress as good as the MG42, but deal a lot less damage and have a worse arc. The fact that it's actually suppressing better means it might got unintentionally changed.

Why did Relic design the MG34 to be superior to the MG42 as an HMG? Shouldn't the MG42 be the best in suppressing while the MG34 be the middle ground between MG42 and Maxim?

Why did Relic design the MG34 to be superior to the MG42 as an HMG? Shouldn't the MG42 be the best in suppressing while the MG34 be the middle ground between MG42 and Maxim?

Because it was changed along the way, it used to suck badly when WFA was released. The resulting buff put the 34 above the 42, or on par, which is ridiculous, knowing the historical difference between the 2 machine guns. It should probably be increased in price to match other HMGs (240), and to nitpick about historical accuracy, Wehrmacht should perhaps use the MG34, while Oberkommando should use MG42 (timeline wise it is plain wrong as it is now). But the historical accuracy is far less important than balance discrepancy between the two machines, much like the difference between Wehr Panther and Ober Panther, which should be looked at (and hopefully fixed in the coming patch).

Well, historically it would have surely made the most sense if both types had been used in both armies simultaneously. I don't think it makes no sense that Obersoldaten use MG34 instead, as the MG34 was still used and even produced until the end of the war even though the MG42 was cheaper to produce, which is not really a factor in CoH2 even though that would be its main advantage historically.

From what I remember (you may correct me), from the sources I heard the combat differences between MG42 and 34 are not that big and some soldiers are claimed to even have prefered the MG34 because of small detail differences or maybe they just liked the MG34 more because it probably "felt" more valuable.

But yeah, no use discussing about history I think when both guns should remain balanced in comparison to the Maxim

Obersoldaten use the MG34 because they participate in the war since '39.
That's also the year they got their rifles and MGs.
After killing thousands of Russians they formed a special bond with their weapons, thus they keep them instead of upgrading them.

@MilkaCow

Thanks for your post. For most players suppression and set up time is more important that the firing arc and the damage. Thus it feels better although the MG42 has a better arc and damage.


I still wish they finally model an avatar for the mg34 crew, since relic just implemented the Volksgrenadier one.

Don't underestimate the importance of damage output of an HMG. The lack of damage the MG34 puts out means that squad can get suppressed/pinned and stay there for a long time without much of a penalty (even with a Volks squad picking away at it all the while). This creates opportunities for other flanking squads.

Compare that to a maxim where a suppressed squad starts dropping models every few seconds at medium range and closer.

Don't underestimate the importance of damage output of an HMG. The lack of damage the MG34 puts out means that squad can get suppressed/pinned and stay there for a long time without much of a penalty (even with a Volks squad picking away at it all the while). This creates opportunities for other flanking squads.

Compare that to a maxim where a suppressed squad starts dropping models every few seconds at medium range and closer.

+1 You could get a squadwipe with the MG42. Which the MG34 will probably not do.

+1 You could get a squadwipe with the MG42. Which the MG34 will probably not do.

No mg will ever get a squad wipe of unless your opponent is an idiot. suppressed units gain a defensive bonus and even with incendiary ammo will take some time.

To be honest i find the mg34 not over performing but the mg42 underperforming.

Don't forget: The MG42 gets to do its full damage for longer because it doesn't suppress them so fast :howdoidothetwitchtrollface?:

Which one of these the HMG42 crews is used in multiplayer?
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/hmg_team_mg42_wg_mp
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/hmg_team_mg42_mp
Because one is dealing much more suppression than the other one. As pointed out in this thread, the difference between HMG42 and HMG34 isn't as big as it is perceived in game and the numbers given in that post match the stronger one of those two. If this was somehow mixed up in game it would be a possible cause for the perceived difference.

Another possible cause would be because of the suppression threshold system (assuming it works like in CoH1): One is enough to push the squad just over the threshold, the other one needs a few shots more for that.
In this case a very very slight nerf to its suppression values might be enough to change it to similar behavior as the HMG42.


Other than that HMG performance in this game is really very different from what you'd expect from them in real life. For example, somehow a water cooled, heavy, and 50 years old pos like the Maxim is somehow the most mobile HMG in the game (don't tell me it is because it has wheels, if anything that only offsets the weight on (good) roads) and also performing in par with other HMGs in other areas. Note that I'm not saying that it is too strong or anything like that. It is just an example for how big the disparity between the CoH arcade-y gameplay (take several bullets and/or nearby explosions) and rl performance (1 hit = you're down/dead) is.
If anything, CoH2 HMGs seem to perform better the older they are. The US soldiers should really try bringing an old Gatling gun along.

Well, historically it would have surely made the most sense if both types had been used in both armies simultaneously. I don't think it makes no sense that Obersoldaten use MG34 instead, as the MG34 was still used and even produced until the end of the war even though the MG42 was cheaper to produce, which is not really a factor in CoH2 even though that would be its main advantage historically.

From what I remember (you may correct me), from the sources I heard the combat differences between MG42 and 34 are not that big and some soldiers are claimed to even have prefered the MG34 because of small detail differences or maybe they just liked the MG34 more because it probably "felt" more valuable.

But yeah, no use discussing about history I think when both guns should remain balanced in comparison to the Maxim

You are right, both types were used throughout the war, but historical accuracy is not respected: MG42 was cheaper to produce, since it was a simplified design of the MG34 (actually half the build time, and 60% cost) In the game we have a cheaper MG34 => first inaccuracy.

MG42 had also the higher fire rate of the two, with 1200 rpm (upgraded to 1800 by the end of the war), while MG34 was 'only' firing at 800-900 rpm. The MG34 has a better suppression in game=> second inaccuracy.

MG34 production was also halted when MG42 entered mass-production, but it saw use until the end of the war, mostly it's vehicle variant, MG34T.

Accuracy would mean (and yes, i know i am nitpicking here, because it is not relevant to balance) that infantry support HMG of Wehrmacht should be MG34 (since this is the incarnation of the German army of 1940 - 1943), and the infantry version of the Oberkommando weapon should be MG42 (German army from 1943 -1945). Both faction's vehicles should be named MG34 though, as MG42 saw almost no use as a vehicle machine gun.

As for the details, i only know what wikipedia has to offer, i actually do not know what were soldiers of that time frame thoughts about the two versions. Apparently, MG42 (thanks to the simplified design) was more robust and lighter, and would resist to dust a bit more, while being a bit more prone to overheat than the MG34.

You are right, both types were used throughout the war, but historical accuracy is not respected: MG42 was cheaper to produce, since it was a simplified design of the MG34 (actually half the build time, and 60% cost) In the game we have a cheaper MG34 => first inaccuracy.

MG42 had also the higher fire rate of the two, with 1200 rpm (upgraded to 1800 by the end of the war), while MG34 was 'only' firing at 800-900 rpm. The MG34 has a better suppression in game=> second inaccuracy.

MG34 production was also halted when MG42 entered mass-production, but it saw use until the end of the war, mostly it's vehicle variant, MG34T.

Accuracy would mean (and yes, i know i am nitpicking here, because it is not relevant to balance) that infantry support HMG of Wehrmacht should be MG34 (since this is the incarnation of the German army of 1940 - 1943), and the infantry version of the Oberkommando weapon should be MG42 (German army from 1943 -1945). Both faction's vehicles should be named MG34 though, as MG42 saw almost no use as a vehicle machine gun.

As for the details, i only know what wikipedia has to offer, i actually do not know what were soldiers of that time frame thoughts about the two versions. Apparently, MG42 (thanks to the simplified design) was more robust and lighter, and would resist to dust a bit more, while being a bit more prone to overheat than the MG34.

To say nothing of the other absurdities in OKW (and the German faction design in general), yes, it's bothered me since day 1 that the MG42 was used in the Eastern Front (It was, but not until after Stalingrad, basically). The fire rate difference between the 34 and 42 is due to a difference in the locking system of each weapon within the action. The barrel was prone to overheating, but this isn't much of an issue considering that a portable drum magazine (around 50 rounds) prevented this from happening, while the belt-feed HMG variants could simply change the barrel.
Both were extremely effective machine guns, but the MG42 was better in basically every aspect. That the MG34 as a weapon performs better (even for other factions) is a travesty and reflects how poorly designed and ill-conceived OKW is in general, especially from a historical standpoint.

This is to say nothing of the Maxim, of course. I'm in favor of replacing the Maxim with the much more common and sensible Goryunov SG43, or even a DP squad, for crying out loud. This is coming from a mainly Soviet player, too.

To reply to the OP, yes, this is something that has bothered me since OKW was released. It's absurd that they get an HMG that is cheaper, yet just as effective as any other comparable unit. Also, it can get up to vet 5 and kill light vehicles, too. Yup. Part of the OKW doctrine of "weaknesses, but not really because we patched them to not have any." It's all a big mess.

To say nothing of the other absurdities in OKW (and the German faction design in general), yes, it's bothered me since day 1 that the MG42 was used in the Eastern Front (It was, but not until after Stalingrad, basically). The fire rate difference between the 34 and 42 is due to a difference in the locking system of each weapon within the action. The barrel was prone to overheating, but this isn't much of an issue considering that a portable drum magazine (around 50 rounds) prevented this from happening, while the belt-feed HMG variants could simply change the barrel.
Both were extremely effective machine guns, but the MG42 was better in basically every aspect. That the MG34 as a weapon performs better (even for other factions) is a travesty and reflects how poorly designed and ill-conceived OKW is in general, especially from a historical standpoint.

This is to say nothing of the Maxim, of course. I'm in favor of replacing the Maxim with the much more common and sensible Goryunov SG43, or even a DP squad, for crying out loud. This is coming from a mainly Soviet player, too.

To reply to the OP, yes, this is something that has bothered me since OKW was released. It's absurd that they get an HMG that is cheaper, yet just as effective as any other comparable unit. Also, it can get up to vet 5 and kill light vehicles, too. Yup. Part of the OKW doctrine of "weaknesses, but not really because we patched them to not have any." It's all a big mess.

I feel you there on the history part, there are so much weird things in the game (don't even get me started on Wehrmacht infantry camos, lol).

This game is not supposed to be realistic, it has to make sense in a gameplay perspective.

This game is not supposed to be realistic, it has to make sense in a gameplay perspective.

But still it depicts a real life war, with (even if not perfect) attention to details. That's why you will read people who are nitpicking about some of those details that are off the mark. I agree it shouldn't be the main focus of the game, but some things can be improved in that department. If it isn't important for you, it may be important for others.

mg34 is uber... it pins so fast its cheap..and has great accuracy/dps. if u notice it shreds infantry. I usually have tons of dmg dealt with these. I think the price needs to go up like dshk. it does to much right now. I agrre its doctrinal so so should be strong but there are a lot of doctrinals on allies side that performs poorly. example-german mortor ht shoots a flame barrage u cant see and its better the the doctrinal flame strike sov has. mortor ht have no flares and is really fast u wont see it coming. they just gta make things balanced and consistent.

This game is not supposed to be realistic, it has to make sense in a gameplay perspective.

Even if it isn't realistic, from a completely mechanical look at the game, I have to ask why OKW gets a machine gun (doctrinal, sure, but that brings into question the DShk, which is awful lol) that is functionally identical to the MG42 (including the ability to fire rounds that destroy light armor), given that the two units come out at roughly the same time, with the main difference being that OKW can function fine without any suppression whatsoever, while the Wehrmacht desperately needs it to hold back the Allied blob. Explain to me why this MG, which is 30 cheaper and has no build time, is almost exactly the same (it even looks to be better at suppressing). 30 manpower cheaper means that building two is only 420MP, whilst a Wehr player needs to spend 480MP FOR THE SAME UNIT (not to mention reinforce costs and upkeep costs as well). The unit even takes 1 less pop than the MG42! Explain to me why in hell it sets up quicker, too! The only real weakness is the arc, but with that setup time, it's functionally closer to a Maxim. This is within a team whose base engineering unit is a squad that is equal to, if not better than Panzergrenadiers, and where the MG itself can achieve FIVE levels of veterancy. When you analyze it, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in a gameplay sense. So when I nitpick about the historical accuracy, it's because my hope is that then maybe the unit would make some sense.

Here are the stats, posted earlier in this thread.
"Average (over all ranges) suppression per second
MG42 - 0.0892
MG34 - 0.0978

Average (over all ranges) damage per second
MG42 - 14.050
MG34 - 10.570

Arc size
MG42 - 120°
MG34 - 90°

Setup time
MG42 - 3 seconds
MG34 - 2 seconds

Teardown
MG42 - 2.5 seconds
MG34 - 2.5 seconds

Splash suppression radius:
MG42 - 11.5
MG34 - 12

Splash suppression modifiers:
MG42 - 0.8
MG34 - 0.8"