T4 and the Panther

So I've played few 3v3 as a German recently, just for fun, and my God how bad majority of German players are. No tactics, no positioning, no setting up traps, only moving around the map in a blob straight into defensive Soviets positions. Mg42s as a spearhead unit, often left alone without any support, Tanks diving deep into enemy lines by themselves, Half tracks used as first line offensive units etc.
Occasional I'd get a decent player in my team and I would have a decent game but that's rare.
I don't even know what's the purpose of this post but at least now I know why there is such a big whine on this forum and overall opinion that Germans are underpowered.
-sigh-

The fact that you got stucked with some retards doesn't mean anything. All you described above are serious mistakes and should not be forgiven in a pro game. But the same players you saw doing those things, I bet they perform nicely with soviets because all you described there (with 1 or 2 exceptions) are exactly the soviet "great players" tactics.

The fact that you got stucked with some retards doesn't mean anything. All you described above are serious mistakes and should not be forgiven in a pro game. But the same players you saw doing those things, I bet they perform nicely with soviets because all you described there (with 1 or 2 exceptions) are exactly the soviet "great players" tactics.

This guy and jaigen must be related. Lol

Can one of the mods change his name to SSWhiney?

If your trouble is the micro difference between the Maxim and MG42, you got waaaay bigger problems to worry about at your skill level.

From all the comments here the panther is balanced in 1vs1 but a bit on the op side in 3vs3 and 4vs4.

From all the comments here the panther is balanced in 1vs1 but a bit on the op side in 3vs3 and 4vs4.

The panther isnt the problme there. 2v2 to a lesser extent and 3v3/4v4 have terribad fuel scaling. This allows it to be spammed and spammed early. A horde of Panthers takes more effort to counter than to use.

This wasnt so with the old AT nade. But add the improved AT nade that bounces off it frontally and you have a serious headache.

In 1v1 if it dies its tragic. In 2v2 and up and its meh that sucks....

This guy and jaigen must be related. Lol

Can one of the mods change his name to SSWhiney?

Hahaha. So funny. Can one of these modes grow you a brain?

What PROs say; I have 2 quotes for u:

HELPING HANS : Really don't understand this. I managed to wipe 2 entire con squads yet still manage to be behind. It's very frustrating when you feel like your efforts are not rewarded. If Ostheer loses their mg42 it's a huge blow however soviet players can lose a couple of cons like it's nothing. Something is wrong with this picture imo.

IMPERIAL DANE: As the Germans you do need to bleed the soviets a lot more than the other way around. Has been like that for a long time. Why those new S mines are so handy. They help considerably with that.

Any other comments?

What does that have to do with panther?

The panther isnt the problme there. 2v2 to a lesser extent and 3v3/4v4 have terribad fuel scaling. This allows it to be spammed and spammed early. A horde of Panthers takes more effort to counter than to use.

This wasnt so with the old AT nade. But add the improved AT nade that bounces off it frontally and you have a serious headache.

In 1v1 if it dies its tragic. In 2v2 and up and its meh that sucks....

The problem then is not the panther but the soviet AT. introducing a turreted like kv-85 would solve a lot of problems

The problem then is not the panther but the soviet AT. introducing a turreted like kv-85 would solve a lot of problems

Well sure that would always be nice. But they arent hard to deal with in 1v1. They have a critical weakness. They really cant do anything to infantry.

Although I would prefer something like the KV85 or lend lease bazookas etc if team games just scaled like larger 1v1 rather than the land of plenty Panther losses would crush Ost as bad as in 1v1. Which point it would be right around the same as it is there. Not hard to deal with and punished upon loss.

Well sure that would always be nice. But they arent hard to deal with in 1v1. They have a critical weakness. They really cant do anything to infantry.

Although I would prefer something like the KV85 or lend lease bazookas etc if team games just scaled like larger 1v1 rather than the land of plenty Panther losses would crush Ost as bad as in 1v1. Which point it would be right around the same as it is there. Not hard to deal with and punished upon loss.

Innefectivness to infantry isn't a weakness when soviet infantry isn't effective against against it. The su-85 will blow if schreck squads get anywhere near it while the panther deflects at nades most of the time and it would take way too long for guards to do any damage.

All they can do is try to make sure it can't charge the at but that only works defensively. There is no way to be aggressive against panthers, and if you you aren't aggressive, you are going to lose eventually.

I just wish they could balance this goddamn game.

Seriously, Soviets are way too good early, or rather, German squads get gibbed too easily. If you take few losses with Soviets and play super well, usually you are looking at a float of 600-800 MP midgame, just retarded.

Having played a lot more 2v2s lately where I can get Panthers out, yeah, I now admit they're kinda ridiculous. Vet 2 is obscene, but very rare (unless they use Elite troops). SU85s can keep them at bay, but you really need to double team them with some guards unless you have an IS-2 or ISU.

In which case in the game I just played, I counter with Tiger Ace, or a Tiger to support a Panther and act as a damage sink.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating - you can't beat the M10 and Hellcats, and vet Airborne from vCOH to counter late Axis armor. Soviets need a mobile tank destroyer that you can micro and has the speed to chase damaged Panthers. I would like the game a lot more with M10s and no SU85s.

Giving one of the most mobile tanks the second biggest range, while easier access to it?

No, i see aaaaabsolutely no problem with this.


To be very clear, a fast tank with a turret does not simply get "caught in a bad position", especially when it has no reason to get any closer than the range of an at gun / su85.

While i agree on your first observation about the viability in 1v1, this solution is something i dont.


P.S. large games / 4v4s go just apeshit, i would't even bother to balance that mess.

+1

Innefectivness to infantry isn't a weakness when soviet infantry isn't effective against against it. The su-85 will blow if schreck squads get anywhere near it while the panther deflects at nades most of the time and it would take way too long for guards to do any damage.

All they can do is try to make sure it can't charge the at but that only works defensively. There is no way to be aggressive against panthers, and if you you aren't aggressive, you are going to lose eventually.

Its quite possible to kill a disabled Panther with Guards. But yeah it isnt easy. But then they do nothing to Guards either but give them Vet.

And Infantry weakness means no threat to a Zis if they are unsupported.

I wish AT nades didnt bounce of them either. This should only happen to tanks like the Elephant or the Tiger. Since Faust only bounces off Doctrinal heavies and is free as part of teching.

Kind of silly AT nades have a cost and just perform so terribly against Non Doctrinal armor but this is for another thread I think....

En Masse they are really an IWIN blob because of heavy armor, high HPs, Speed and absolutey horribad Soviet AT in General.

And in team games as I have said before they are just way too easy to replace. I feel like I am fighting against Ostheer Industry when I play these game modes.

I just wish they could balance this goddamn game.

Seriously, Soviets are way too good early, or rather, German squads get gibbed too easily. If you take few losses with Soviets and play super well, usually you are looking at a float of 600-800 MP midgame, just retarded.

Having played a lot more 2v2s lately where I can get Panthers out, yeah, I now admit they're kinda ridiculous. Vet 2 is obscene, but very rare (unless they use Elite troops). SU85s can keep them at bay, but you really need to double team them with some guards unless you have an IS-2 or ISU.

In which case in the game I just played, I counter with Tiger Ace, or a Tiger to support a Panther and act as a damage sink.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating - you can't beat the M10 and Hellcats, and vet Airborne from vCOH to counter late Axis armor. Soviets need a mobile tank destroyer that you can micro and has the speed to chase damaged Panthers. I would like the game a lot more with M10s and no SU85s.

While early game might favor soviets a bit, it is nowhere near scewed as far as that late game. There has never been a soviet opening I haven't been able to defeat with a bit a manuevering and flanking, but out manuevering as the soviets in the late game is terribly unrewarding.

Just the other day I was playing a game against an opponent who I was beating pretty well until he brought out an elephant against my su-85s. I managed to force away his infantry and flank him from both behind and the front with fricking su-85s which isn't exactly easy too do, but the damn thing was able to turn kill one and then turn and kill the other while only taking a quarter of damage.

A lot of the tanks on the ostheer except the Tiger have way too much health for the amount of armor and sometimes speed they have. It feels as though they were balanced against a total different faction that actually has effective AT. The only reason I suggested my change in the first place is because it just takes way too long to kill even if you do outmanuever them.

There was some talk at variable penetration at ranges, which I think could be a better solution then even the one I suggested.

FWIW the effectiveness of Guards if you have some patience can't be understated. I've had 2-3 triple vet guards squads that have come up, waited for Panthers to attack and then alternated buttoning all the while blazing away with AT rifles, surprisingly effective, add in an SU-85 behind or SU-76M and a Panther is going down...

HOWEVER, the most significant problem as said before is that Soviets have absolutely no Mobile (i.e. turreted) AT (non-doctrinally ofc). It's ridiculous how easy it is for a Panther to simply blitz or just reverse out of an attack and the Soviets are hardpressed to pursue. Pretty much it makes attacking Soviet positions a giant Vet maker for German tanks and once they hit Vet 2 they become almost unstoppable...

FWIW the effectiveness of Guards if you have some patience can't be understated. I've had 2-3 triple vet guards squads that have come up, waited for Panthers to attack and then alternated buttoning all the while blazing away with AT rifles, surprisingly effective, add in an SU-85 behind or SU-76M and a Panther is going down...

HOWEVER, the most significant problem as said before is that Soviets have absolutely no Mobile (i.e. turreted) AT (non-doctrinally ofc). It's ridiculous how easy it is for a Panther to simply blitz or just reverse out of an attack and the Soviets are hardpressed to pursue. Pretty much it makes attacking Soviet positions a giant Vet maker for German tanks and once they hit Vet 2 they become almost unstoppable...

2-3 upgraded gaurds alternating button? Who the hell has munitions for that? That's 180 for upgrades and another 120 for them all to use button. You might have been able to pull that off once with a huge lead, but that's just not sustainable for a close match.

2-3 upgraded gaurds alternating button? Who the hell has munitions for that? That's 180 for upgrades and another 120 for them all to use button. You might have been able to pull that off once with a huge lead, but that's just not sustainable for a close match.

Actually its not as hard as you might think. Yes you pay a lot of munitions for the ability but you spread it out over time and they upgrade the Guards in general so you get more bang for your buck. Also you only need 2 squads when they have vet. Vet gives guards a longer duration on button.

In addition, 120 munitions is not different than ost using two teller mines, or a couple of blitz's or a single stuka attack, or an arty strike. To trade 120 munitions for a tank, I would do that any day for any tank (except maybe, maybe the T70). Two guards alternating button is scary if you don't have smoke. You are basically going to lose your armor if you get caught once. A single tank, field gun, or SU85 will quickly speed things up and save you some munitions. This is soviets we are talking about afterall, they've got munitions.

It's ridiculous how easy it is for a Panther to simply blitz or just reverse out of an attack and the Soviets are hardpressed to pursue. Pretty much it makes attacking Soviet positions a giant Vet maker for German tanks and once they hit Vet 2 they become almost unstoppable...

The really fun part is that it gets vet from all that damage taken and thus blitzkrieg makes it much less likely you'll catch it again. Another of Relic's brilliant design decisions. It was hilarious in beta, you could accumulate vet faster by getting units in bad situations and retreating at the last minute than you could from fighting on equal terms.

...

I wish AT nades didnt bounce of them either. This should only happen to tanks like the Elephant or the Tiger. Since Faust only bounces off Doctrinal heavies and is free as part of teching.

Kind of silly AT nades have a cost and just perform so terribly against Non Doctrinal armor but this is for another thread I think....

En Masse they are really an IWIN blob because of heavy armor, high HPs, Speed and absolutey horribad Soviet AT in General.

And in team games as I have said before they are just way too easy to replace. I feel like I am fighting against Ostheer Industry when I play these game modes.

+1 thats how i often feel too.

In the original VCOH, 'engine damage' happened regardless of armor.

Usually one sticky is enough to engine damage a King Tiger.

Making AT nades weak against heavy armor in this game was a design mistake.