Upgunning the soviets - the IS-2

Personally, I think the IS2 is crippled by being originally designed in COH as an analogue to the Tiger 1, when historically it was closer to the Tiger 2 in terms of armor protection and firepower. If I could redesign the unit from the ground up, I would make it a heavily armored, slow RoF vehicle with the same main gun damage stats as the KT (Slower reload obviously.) To compensate for slow RoF, it should instead have faster movement speed than the KT, and maybe a wider AoE on each shell so it damages infantry in a wider radius (but doesn't kill anymore than the KT does.)

It would obviously have to be priced around as much as a KT with these changes though.

I get why people are advocating for a change like that, but gameplay-wise I'd argue this isn't a very good solution. If you want a hard-hitting, heavily-armored, 240 DMG vehicle with slow reload to compensate you already have the KV-2, which fills this niche quite nicely. Turning the IS-2, or better the 122mm main gun into a KV-2 clone would rather remove some of its uniqueness IMHO, not add more to it.
At the moment, the IS-2 is pretty much a Tiger I analogue in terms of performance - a bit worse at AT duties (taking both survivability and damage output into account) and a tiny bit better AI-wise. It also already has a much larger AoE compared to the Tiger I, which sources most of its AI DPS from the fast reload speed in exchange for hitting less models at once.
So in terms of "flavor" the differences you propose are already there, and although scaling the IS-2 to be more of a Tiger II equivalent is certainly possible, I don't think this would change anything with respect to how viable it is in teamgames. The same counters that make it a sub-par choice in larger game modes (at least according to those who play these modes) would still hard-counter it in almost the same way.
Overall, I'd say the IS-2 is fine the way it is, even though it might not be a 100% accurate representation of the real-world namesake. The only thing I'd change is maybe to make the vet-1 skillshot a bit less telegraphed and awkward to use. This alone could give it a huge boost and also make the 122mm cannon live up to its name - at least vs infantry.

I agree with this. Why doesn't the Blitzkrieg commander have panzershokolade upgrade for tank crews?

give Brits the Earl Grey tea upgrade. Instant +20% accuracy bonus.

this is the ideal solution, to turn it into a king tiger for the allies


but this would mean that the allies get an assault tank, god forbid the balance team lets allies have actually threatening heavy armor


They have Ptsd of some ancient time while current team mode is king tiger into elefant into overwatch or jagdtiger and nothing fucking else but axis heavy armor, its literally only heavy armor and lefh spam

its sure fucking fun, but god forbid the allies beat our armor that we can fucking a-move at this point

Because Axis struggles more then allies vs heavy armour, because axis DONT HAVE access to 60 range high pen TD's. Yes, currently team games modes with Kt's, elephants etc is annoying and everybody knows teams 3v3,4v4s games is a balance mess and will ALWAYS be a mess and yet you want to make changes based on whats happening in team games. IS2 is fine as it is, your complaining it being push back by a panther with support lol, im sorry are you saying it should be able to walk through the entire axis roster? and last time i checked isnt panther supposed to be a somewhat of a counter to is2?

Because Axis struggles more then allies vs heavy armour, because axis DONT HAVE access to 60 range high pen TD's. Yes, currently team games modes with Kt's, elephants etc is annoying and everybody knows teams 3v3,4v4s games is a balance mess and will ALWAYS be a mess and yet you want to make changes based on whats happening in team games. IS2 is fine as it is, your complaining it being push back by a panther with support lol, im sorry are you saying it should be able to walk through the entire axis roster? and last time i checked isnt panther supposed to be a somewhat of a counter to is2?

I don't think people are seriously arguing that the Panther should be bad against the IS2 (it's the only unit Axis have that can really stop a heavy, apart from buying your own heavy).

The point is though that the IS2 does not really provide any gameplay benefit. Because of the Panther, it cannot break through an enemy line, since the Panther will just sit there, and with minor support the IS2 can't advance. That's basically how the rest of the Soviet units already play, relying on long range pot shots to whittle the enemy tanks down. You don't need an IS-2 for that, there's nothing new.

The canon has an AI focus, which I also don't fully get why. Both ISU152 and KV-2 also focus on AI which their special flavor. Either long range shots (ISU) or a large AoE and even lobbed indirect shots (KV2). The IS-2's cannon is still good AI wise, but also offers nothing special. It does decent damage, but is not as capable of wiping squads. As I said previously, you can get a Katy instead if you want to wipe enemy squads.

The unit is okay, but it just doesn't offer much new to the faction.

The point is though that the IS2 does not really provide any gameplay benefit. Because of the Panther, it cannot break through an enemy line, since the Panther will just sit there, and with minor support the IS2 can't advance. That's basically how the rest of the Soviet units already play, relying on long range pot shots to whittle the enemy tanks down. You don't need an IS-2 for that, there's nothing new.

You’re gonna sit here with a straight face and tell us the IS2 with vet 1 Frag shells and either IL2 looter or flame barrage from commanders can’t break through an enemy line and provides no benefit different from other Soviet units? How exactly does the Panther zone it out with its slow reload? IS2 pushing with double zis and cons is not in danger from a lone Panther. The real danger comes when the IS2 is snared in front of 2 pak40s and the Panther chases for the kill.

You’re gonna sit here with a straight face and tell us the IS2 with vet 1 Frag shells and either IL2 looter or flame barrage from commanders can’t break through an enemy line and provides no benefit different from other Soviet units? How exactly does the Panther zone it out with its slow reload? IS2 pushing with double zis and cons is not in danger from a lone Panther. The real danger comes when the IS2 is snared in front of 2 pak40s and the Panther chases for the kill.

The frag shells are okay but nothing to build your army or strategy around. So nope, they bring nothing really interesting to the table.

Your example is pretty biased. If you use a fully coordinated push as an example (which is fair), then at least compare it to a fully coordinated defense. I also never talked about zoning.
The point is: One Panther is enough to block the IS2 from advancing, all support units being roughly equal, even if you manage to not get scouted with your attack. Do the same thing as Axis with a KT or Tiger, and your units are on the run, because Allies do not have a beefy Panther-like TD. Which is also fully fine balance-wise, it just makes the IS-2 uninteresting.

I agree, in 4v4 IS2 is meh at best.
I believe the theme of IS2 is to be a ''breaktrough tank'', why not give it some timed ability like 10-20% speed/DPM/accuracy/recevied damage buff?
240 dmg per shot seems excessive, i think 200 sounds better

240 dmg per shot seems excessive, i think 200 sounds better

You people realize that this is literally the same base damage the KT does by default right?

The frag shells are okay but nothing to build your army or strategy around. So nope, they bring nothing really interesting to the table.

Your example is pretty biased. If you use a fully coordinated push as an example (which is fair), then at least compare it to a fully coordinated defense. I also never talked about zoning.
The point is: One Panther is enough to block the IS2 from advancing, all support units being roughly equal, even if you manage to not get scouted with your attack. Do the same thing as Axis with a KT or Tiger, and your units are on the run, because Allies do not have a beefy Panther-like TD. Which is also fully fine balance-wise, it just makes the IS-2 uninteresting.

im confused are we walking a panther fighting is2 alone or panther fighting with support. If i have panther with support then it better well damn stop the is2 lol. even if its 1v1, with panthers low rate of fire (is2 can also bounce shots from panther) combined with is2's health and armour, a single panther cannot stop an is2, but damage it slowly over time and you guys seem to forget an is2 can fight back lol.

I highlighted part of your text, if i have coordinated defence that cant even stop an is2, then clearly is2 would have to be OP to be able to do that.

The same applies if i use a tiger or KT, if tiger walks into a TD with AT support the tiger will be forced to fall back, The KT can definitely stay in the fight for longer but due to its slow speed, you can kite with your TD's.

People here just want the is2 to be a yolo tank, but its currently in the same position as all heavies, it needs to be used with support if your fighting a coordinated defence which is a good thing.

The frag shells are okay but nothing to build your army or strategy around. So nope, they bring nothing really interesting to the table.

Nonsense, you can drop frag shells on the double paks while you push, an ability none of the other main battle tanks in 1v1 offer, while armoured assault lets you drop the OP as fuck IL2 loiter and instapin the enemy infantry for an easy breakthrough. You bring 2 Zis guns and the Panther has to back off real fast.

The point is: One Panther is enough to block the IS2 from advancing

Nonsense. 2 pak40s are enough to stop an IS2 from just dumbly charging ahead. Panther serves an offensive role hunting it down. It's not a good defensive vehicle due to its rate of fire. StuGG is a much better example of a defensive vehicle, with fast vetting up, low cost and pop cap and high rate of fire which cannot chase vehicles due to low speed, rotation and being a casemate.

Do the same thing as Axis with a KT or Tiger

Different units. Tiger zones out premium mediums like T34/85s and Comets while both KT and Tiger mostly stay near the front constantly bleeding the opponent hard with their main gun hitting opposing squads. IS2 does that too but its commanders having breakthrough ability call ins and the better durability of 7man cons compared to Grens and soviets weapons teams with its frag shells allow the soviet player to more easily make a big push compared to an Ost player. Ost player has to contend with more mines, has to spot the double zis to drop frag bombs and actually hit them. Soviet player has to spot the double paks, drops frag shell and IL2s and just push in. Different tanks, different strengths.

You are not fully countering what he said. Your first point about the frag shells combined with a loiter requires specific circumstances when the ISU152 and KV2 can both handle the situation with less micro/overall investment. So the IS2 does not bring something different.

Since the game is not played in a vacuum your 2nd point makes sense however the 2Pak40 and 1 Panther will have an easier time dealing with the IS2 and 2 ZIS especially when vet gets involved and target weakpoint is used.

I understand what your putting out about OST and tiger but none of that applies to OKW which can field a Tiger and KT. Depending on commander OKW can do everything you say and more. Shit overwatch docterine you get AI/AT loiter in one along with the ability to make howitzer and JLI to spot for the abilities. You can use heat shells or even back tracking to your original statement you can equip a Panther with arty call in and force the zis to move while it and the PAK force the IS2 into submission. Hell, the other fusi doctrine has that artillery which can also be used as a breakthrough so its not unique at all to the IS2 doctrine.

KV2 doesn’t have shells as strong as frag shell and is generally less mobile without the OP af pintle Dshka so it’s not the dame unit. ISU152 is rarely seen in 1s due to being a casemate.

Idgaf if you need specific circumstances, no shit you do, it’s a strong combined arms play that can pay off.

The IS-2 definitely seems weak compared to other Heavy Tanks and completely inferior to T-34/85's or the ISU. I think the main thing letting it down is its anti-infantry just doesn't cut out unless you get good RNG. Even a single T-34/85 seems to be better against infantry. I don't know why there's such a disparity between anti-infantry firepower for heavy tanks. At least the Pershing has good damage now, the Is-2 feels like the pre-buff Pershing but slower in exchange for more health/armor. It's not unusable, but I don't see any use case for the IS-2 over other stronger options.

The IS-2 definitely seems weak compared to other Heavy Tanks and completely inferior to T-34/85's or the ISU. I think the main thing letting it down is its anti-infantry just doesn't cut out unless you get good RNG. Even a single T-34/85 seems to be better against infantry. I don't know why there's such a disparity between anti-infantry firepower for heavy tanks. At least the Pershing has good damage now, the Is-2 feels like the pre-buff Pershing but slower in exchange for more health/armor. It's not unusable, but I don't see any use case for the IS-2 over other stronger options.

Sorry, but this is just bullshit. All heavies, exluding the KV-2, are actually very similar in DPS and KPS. Some reload faster and have lower scatter and AoE, others (like the IS-2) hit harder, but less often and with lower precision to compensate. Still, if you compare them in the same setup they are very close in actual AI performance and much better than any medium or premium med of their respective factions. Yes, the T-34/85 deals solid AI, but it's still miles apart from what an IS-2 can dish out, especially once upgraded with the pintle.

You could probably argue that the IS-2 is worse with respect to AI to cost ratio, but as far as raw damage output is concerned it's not even a contest.

To get capitalize on IS2 strengths you need to fight in range of its mounted MG. The tank is the best at those ranges, because DHSK dps is at least twice as better as any other mounted MG. Also it nukes infantry and team weapons with the ability very well.
So if IS2 is not able to fight in those ranges, then it loses its effectiveness, hence the lackluster performance in teamgames, even with absence of threats like JT and Ele. You can't stand there within its optimal range without getting heavily pummeled into oblivion by multiple AT pieces.

...
I would say that the only flaw of the is-2 is that its pretty much an obese t-34/85. You can stand your ground vs individual german tanks (up to panther level), but you immediately lose initiative if the panther you're fighting has any sort of support (or multiple unit combinations that match the cost of your is-2), and will retreat. If the enemy has stronger armor (JT, elefant, king tiger), you lose the game outright, these hard counter the is-2 and there's nothing you can really do about it.
...

In sort the "flaw" is that one can counter the unit:

1)by Supported Panther
This is not really "flaw" a Panther role is exactly that to counter heavily armored vehicles. The real problem would be if a supported Panther couldn't not counter the IS-2 since axis would have no stock option and they would have to use the same doctrines again and again

2)by JT/Elefant
These more expensive dedicated TDs are doctrinal and their role is exactly to counter heavily armored vehicles. The real problem would be if these heavy TD couldn't not counter the IS-2 since there would be no reason to even purchase these units if they couldn't deal with an IS-2

3)by KT
A more expensive in cost a tech heavy tank.

So no, there is no flaw in IS-2.


About bringing nothing new to the table, that is not really IS-2 fault. People complain about KV-2 so it was redesigned to be closer to IS-2 and now there are complains that are to similar.

If a unit need to change that would be KV-2 which is an assault gun and not IS-2 which is a heavy tank.

KV2 and IS2 are nothing alike, unless you want Starcraft 2 level of diversity.

Not 3.29?

No. Total reload is more than just the base value, it includes other values like wind up/down too (due to animations etc.). And that's the minimum reload value too, it has a variable one between 3.29-3.71s. A veteran Tiger has 3.75s average reload according to Serealia.

No. Total reload is more than just the base value, it includes other values like wind up/down too (due to animations etc.). And that's the minimum reload value too, it has a variable one between 3.29-3.71s. A veteran Tiger has 3.75s average reload according to Serealia.

I know about wind up and wind down like the Pershing and Jackson, but is this interval a randomly assigned number or is there some logic behind it? Sometimes it fires 3.29, sometimes 3.5 sometimes 3.71?

Yes, the T-34/85 deals solid AI, but it's still miles apart from what an IS-2 can dish out, especially once upgraded with the pintle.

Do you mean the ISU pintle? I didn't think the IS-2 got a pintle, but it's been awhile since i've used it.