Upgunning the soviets - the IS-2

260? Allied TDs have 260 pen at CLOSE range.....

It is shorthand for a collection of TDs with a range of pen profiles with 260-240-220, 240-230-220 & 260-240-210 unless you want to type that out every time someone complains Axis armour has too high armor. And this is exactly what you'll be sending a KT into, so an Allied analogue of the KT should expect the same deathtrap possibility. The pen numbers get even higher with vet.

It is shorthand for a collection of TDs with a range of pen profiles with 260-240-220, 240-230-220 & 260-240-210 unless you want to type that out every time someone complains Axis armour has too high armor.

Its a very misleading shorthand, the closer range penetration is almost never going to be a factor

And this is exactly what you'll be sending a KT into, so an Allied analogue of the KT should expect the same deathtrap possibility. The pen numbers get even higher with vet.

So 260 armor 960 hp tank hunter then for allies as well?

Cause if im getting this new and more expensive is2, not gonna have as much fuel/pop space for those TDs. Panther would do pretty well in that scenario

What are those numbers

this is chance to penetrate @ long range with 220pen vs each of those tanks

this is chance to penetrate @ long range with 220pen vs each of those tanks

ew numbers

Its a very misleading shorthand, the closer range penetration is almost never going to be a factor

You'll find point blank shootouts more common than most ppl realise, esp when the TDs are desperately trying to reverse from a tank dive. Show Spoiler Nethertheless, most ppl here reading "260 pen TDs" will understand what I mean.

Do you have a better shorthand description then?

So 260 armor 960 hp tank hunter then for allies as well?

Cause if im getting this new and more expensive is2, not gonna have as much fuel/pop space for those TDs. Panther would do pretty well in that scenario

Panther is going to get annihilated by a half-decently piloted tank with KT stats. Outslugged, out-dps'd, out-armoured and outgunned. It's like sending a Comet vs KT and then unsurprisingly being flattened into the floor and then 10 more metres deep. Maybe you can win the lottery in bounces but this is unrealistic.

What's OST going to get vs this monster then? StuGs? PaKs are already DoA vs SOV late game. You want Elefant and JT every match guaranteed? IS-2 was highly cancerous during the heavy meta iirc. OKW's 200-185-170 pen JP4s struggle vs IS-2 today, nvm this thing.

You'll find point blank shootouts more common than most ppl realise, esp when the TDs are desperately trying to reverse from a tank dive.

this would be an argument if allied TDs didn't have an (arguable) medium/hard disadvantage against tanks that are able to fire back, as all of your adversaries will always pen you and have more HP than you do

Show Spoiler

Nethertheless, most ppl here reading "260 pen TDs" will understand what I mean.

Do you have a better shorthand description then?


Panther is going to get annihilated by a half-decently piloted tank with KT stats. Outslugged, out-dps'd, out-armoured and outgunned. It's like sending a Comet vs KT and then unsurprisingly being flattened into the floor and then 10 more metres deep. Maybe you can win the lottery in bounces but this is unrealistic.

What's OST going to get vs this monster then? StuGs? PaKs are already DoA vs SOV late game. You want Elefant and JT every match guaranteed? IS-2 was highly cancerous during the heavy meta iirc. OKW's 200-185-170 pen JP4s struggle vs IS-2 today, nvm this thing.

worth mentioning that a panther (And stug for this matter) both already outrange an IS-2, and a panther is faster than an is-2 by default (getting only faster with blitzkrieg).

since kiting enemy tanks is an alien concept to axis players, the panther can additionally sit in the IS-2s firing range and, while not outright beating it, repels basically all attacks done by it, hence why I made the thread a long time ago.


apparently paks are bad despite having the objectively best AT stats in the game for towed AT, they could have a thousand penetration and somehow it would not seem to be enough...

textbook alliedplayer schizophrenia

this would be an argument if allied TDs didn't have an (arguable) medium/hard disadvantage against tanks that are able to fire back, as all of your adversaries will always pen you and have more HP than you do

Panzer IV cost: 350 MP 120 fuel. Jackson/SU85/Firefly cost: about 440 MP 145 fuel with less teching up required.

You can literally win the game by becoming the first to pump out TD to rape enemy's P4 which by that point would be paper thin. No point in arguing about lategame where you are going to be stuck with TDs against the axis' beasts that you did not harass enough in the first place to stop their production.

worth mentioning that a panther (And stug for this matter) both already outrange an IS-2, and a panther is faster than an is-2 by default (getting only faster with blitzkrieg).

so?

since kiting enemy tanks is an alien concept to axis players, the panther can additionally sit in the IS-2s firing range and, while not outright beating it, repels basically all attacks done by it, hence why I made the thread a long time ago.

That's correct, since neither of those tanks are made for long range pens (even though IS-2 has 250pen against armor from far range compared to Panther's 220 but I don't even care). But what I really don't get is why do you whine when the IS-2 has self repair ability basically for free (since SOV are notorious for their crazy muni floats) AND an amazing AI and AT special shell that wipes in seconds? Panther sucks balls in the AI department and that's to be expected.

If your only problem with IS-2 is the IS-2 vs Panther matchup you are using it very very wrong.

apparently paks are bad despite having the objectively best AT stats in the game for towed AT, they could have a thousand penetration and somehow it would not seem to be enough...

Tell me how could a single Pak become a threat against a 340front armor 1040hp behemoth.

this would be an argument if allied TDs didn't have an (arguable) medium/hard disadvantage against tanks that are able to fire back, as all of your adversaries will always pen you and have more HP than you do

Sure, if it was only slugouts within visual range....which only happens if the Allied player messed up or got outskilled. Otherwise it's Panthers shooting into FOW against self-spotting SU-85s or even 45 sight range Fireflies. Missing at least half your shots is the realistic outcome there. Jackson is extremely manoeuvrable and has 75% moving accuracy, making even visual range chases a dangerous idea as well for Panthers (50% moving accuracy).

worth mentioning that a panther (And stug for this matter) both already outrange an IS-2, and a panther is faster than an is-2 by default (getting only faster with blitzkrieg).

since kiting enemy tanks is an alien concept to axis players, the panther can additionally sit in the IS-2s firing range and, while not outright beating it, repels basically all attacks done by it, hence why I made the thread a long time ago.

KT has 45 range, as would an analogue of it. Unlike an AT gun, crossing that 5 distance can be done in the blink of an eye, esp against something with bad pathfinding like a StuG. If you want to talk about properly kiting, then you will constantly be on a knife edge reversing with moving accuracy penalties. Maybe a SCII pro with 4k+ hours can micro that edge, but the vast vast majority of COH2 players cannot.

Other ppl in other threads have already explained why the IS-2 is having issues against the Panther.

apparently paks are bad despite having the objectively best AT stats in the game for towed AT, they could have a thousand penetration and somehow it would not seem to be enough...

They are bad vs SOV late game because they get wiped by Katyusha the moment you pair them up together for more than a few seconds.

is2 is good

The IS-2 would definitely be in a better position if it wasn't for only two commanders, of which one is viable in the game. Either make the IS-2 an analogue of the King Tiger due to exclusivity, or you to give the IS-2 to as many commanders as possible, just look at the Tiger in how many commanders is it? Five, six? Then remove the KV-1 in T4 and replace the KV-1 in the commanders with the IS-2.

The IS-2 would definitely be in a better position if it wasn't for only two commanders, of which one is viable in the game. Either make the IS-2 an analogue of the King Tiger due to exclusivity, or you to give the IS-2 to as many commanders as possible, just look at the Tiger in how many commanders is it? Five, six? Then remove the KV-1 in T4 and replace the KV-1 in the commanders with the IS-2.

Good idea, given how idiotic and useless KV is in almost any role.

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KT has 45 range, as would an analogue of it.
...

IS-2 start at range 40 and get range 50 at vet 2

kv1 is good

Do you have a better shorthand description then?

Allied TDs.....? Not like they have any doctrinal ones u could confuse them with. Unless u count ISU with AP

Panther is going to get annihilated by a half-decently piloted tank with KT stats. Outslugged, out-dps'd, out-armoured and outgunned. It's like sending a Comet vs KT and then unsurprisingly being flattened into the floor and then 10 more metres deep. Maybe you can win the lottery in bounces but this is unrealistic.

Comet doesnt outrange the KT, it has less hp than a panther, and 50 lower pen at far range. That aint the same

Of course KT has edge but the panther will do well for cost, specially with its mobility against an IS2 that would now be much slower

What's OST going to get vs this monster then? StuGs? PaKs are already DoA vs SOV late game.

No they arent, specially if this newly priced things on the field. Way less pop/fuel for katys

If it got this treatment would need all the price increases too. Probably even make it cost a little more than KT to make up for tech difference (sov is cheaper total iirc)

IS-2 was highly cancerous during the heavy meta iirc.

Wasnt every heavy tank? Isnt that why its called the heavy meta

IIrc that was same time as when OKW got their new tiger 1

Allied TDs.....? Not like they have any doctrinal ones u could confuse them with. Unless u count ISU with AP

Achilles and M10 exist. Not very good TDs but I've been mauled by them in the past enough to respect them.

Wasnt every heavy tank? Isnt that why its called the heavy meta

IIrc that was same time as when OKW got their new tiger 1

All the more reason not to go incentivise it when the opposing side lacks high pen TDs to deal with it. Heavy tank meta was terrible for the game and balance in general. The only real exception to it was the KT, on account of it being a slow brick. Idk why Tiger 1 got given to OKW, this was/is a mistake in my opinion. As were/are Pz IV Ausf. Js to OST.

Comet doesnt outrange the KT, it has less hp than a panther, and 50 lower pen at far range. That aint the same

Of course KT has edge but the panther will do well for cost, specially with its mobility against an IS2 that would now be much slower


No they arent, specially if this newly priced things on the field. Way less pop/fuel for katys

If it got this treatment would need all the price increases too. Probably even make it cost a little more than KT to make up for tech difference (sov is cheaper total iirc)

I was talking about the IS-2 being made into a KT, not IS-2 balance today. PaKs are not going to stop an enemy, KT realistically speaking. Not unless the RNG is heavily in your favour (looking at you M1s which swiss cheesed my KT).

In any case, I don't think this change would get approved even if we were to get another balance patch.

Achilles and M10 exist. Not very good TDs but I've been mauled by them in the past enough to respect them.

Ahh true, fair point. I dont rly see them as TDs but it is in their name lol

I was talking about the IS-2 being made into a KT, not IS-2 balance today. PaKs are not going to stop an enemy, KT realistically speaking. Not unless the RNG is heavily in your favour (looking at you M1s which swiss cheesed my KT)

On their own sure, but AT guns + literally anything else is usually enough to back a KT off. U cant ignore them if a snaring squad is approaching or a medium is trying to park on ur KTs ass

Ahh true, fair point. I dont rly see them as TDs but it is in their name lol

Light TD, maybe?

Light TD, maybe?

More like "2 shot dead TDs" but I agree that they should be respected. Having a 20hp tank backing up and seeing one of those shitcans coming at you kamikaze style is horrifying.