HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

This. The Autofire range nerf was more than enough to bring this unit back from OP territory. I'd also argue that the Timed Fuse rounds are way less useful than flares so it was a borderline nerf in my eyes. I agree that it can be tilting at times if it lands just right and you get wiped as a result but that usually happens due to micro burden and/or lazy gameplay. If you're paying attention that shouldn't happen too much.

I'd say the flare was definitely more useful in most situations, but those timed fuse shells are hilarious vs soft armor like rocket arty and mortar hts

The 120MM mortar is not that good in my personal opinion mostly due to the 2CP requirement and its very slow rate of fire.

Getting 2 regular mortars will outperform a single 120 and you can get them much sooner.

Also Shock Troops are amazing when combined with 80MM Mortar Smoke and are a better investment and will have more of an impact on a match than the 120MM mortar would during that phase of the game.

Its not a bad unit by any means but it is not OP either.

This. The Autofire range nerf was more than enough to bring this unit back from OP territory. I'd also argue that the Timed Fuse rounds are way less useful than flares so it was a borderline nerf in my eyes. I agree that it can be tilting at times if it lands just right and you get wiped as a result but that usually happens due to micro burden and/or lazy gameplay. If you're paying attention that shouldn't happen too much.

Timed fused are not meant to be used vs soft target but vs building and vehicles.

Is this supposedly OK? Unkillable Soviet units - "this is OK, cannot be fixed, nerf is not needed", German Squad strength 4 with Minimal crew 2 - "this is balanced." UNDERSTAND.

I don't think you understand anything I wrote honestly. The fact that the 120mm requires only one model to be crewed has been a topic of debate for years, and most people were absolutely in support for the mortar to have a minimum crew of two. But since a change like this would likely require changing the animations of the unit it was deemed "unfixable". To make up for that, the total model count was reduced to 5, meaning you now need to kill as many crew members (4) of the HM-38 as for the PM-41 to decrew it. Hence, survivability went down already. The latest patch took it even further by tightening the formation of the crew, so they'll be easier to wipe with AoE hits from tanks or indirect fire pieces. That's why IMHO it isn't necessary to nerf the 120mm's survivability even more.

As for bringing the leIG into this... apples and oranges, really. Yes, both are indirect fire units, but that's where the similarities end already. The HM-38 may pack a stronger punch, have more crew models and be able to retreat, but it is also more expensive (both MP and pop-wise), has lower ROF and higher scatter, and is doctrinal. Not to mention both are in different factions and, thus, these kinds of in-a-vacuum head-to-head comparisons don't usually make too much sense, anyway.

The 120MM mortar is not that good in my personal opinion mostly due to the 2CP requirement and its very slow rate of fire.

Getting 2 regular mortars will outperform a single 120 and you can get them much sooner.

Also Shock Troops are amazing when combined with 80MM Mortar Smoke and are a better investment and will have more of an impact on a match than the 120MM mortar would during that phase of the game.

Its not a bad unit by any means but it is not OP either.

Playing in 4's, if I have to deal with an opponent that is obviously being very turtle-y and spamming support weapons, I'll get one mortar. If it continues, and there's a lot of it, I'll get a commander with a 120mm and use them in conjunction to each other. I think a 120mm and a 80mm would outperform two 80mms easily, because the 80mm can spot for the 120mm and the 120mm can do big damage across weapon teams while the 80mm can follow up quickly with its smaller but more quickly fired shots.

i have lost count how many times relic nerf the 120mm.

120 range RNG 1 shot wipe machine with precision shot ability. the good old times, no axis players would blob, when 120mm in da haus.

PSA for the upcoming posts: please remember that the 120mm mortar is 340 manpower, explaining why its a strong unit in the first place

PSA for the upcoming posts: please remember that the 120mm mortar is 340 manpower, explaining why its a strong unit in the first place

Right right but all things considered 15mp per model reinforce cost is just as low as the regular mortar. It's already cheaper than recrewing with conscripts. I do think that the reinforce cost had ought to be higher. Especially because it gets extra range in the first place. Any damage against it had ought to hurt a bit more.

Ofc it's unlikely to happen since the balance team said they're not planning on making any big updates or anything.

EDIT: I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but if the Leig and Pak have a higher reinforce cost than 15, then I do think the 120mm had ought to be more expensive for consistency's sake.

I'd say that even if we consider price\survivability\range\damage and that fact that its in all the meta commanders to be fine, I for myself cant understand why this unit is at 2CP.

2CP is the timing of elite-call in inf and it can be achieved in first 2-3 mins of the game. I cant say for 1v1, but in 2v2+ you can just turtle a bit save a bit MP to pretty much call-in very early into the game.

I hate to bring sturmtiger into the aurgument, but along side all nerfs it got, it also got 2CP increase, specifically to address the fact that even with its being nerfed at 8CP mark it was very easy to obtain just by skipping your first medium.

Its the same deal with 120mm mortar, it just comes too early at the timing when you generally expected to spend this 340MP anyway. In teamgames espeacilly, since its awaible around when ost is getting T2 and OKW is getting first IG. I mean its fair to assume that 120mm kinda should arrive at the time of IGs and Pack Howis, but 120mm is better by a mile then both mentioned units, yet still for some reason timing wasnt adressed.

Formation change was a soft nerf, which is cool but if we consider that 120mm already outranges ost mortar and we consider that IGs barrage suck ass, then what was the formation nerf for? Sure zu fuss\LeFH\Werfers have easier time dealing with them now, but the main point was that 120mm mortar is pretty much uncounterable in right hands untill the late game, where long range units start to hiting the field.

The 120mm exists at 2CP to hard counter MG and Mortar openings, which generally reach full form about then (6 min into game). This means it hits the field just after double MG double Mortar does, giving that combo some time to accrue value. I find IF you can survive till the 120mm on really constrained maps, it can save the mid game.

Generally, this is about when LVs hit the field, and calling in a 120mm mortar requires giving up the elite infantry or AT gun needed to zone those. It punishes turtling aggressively, which is fantastic, but that comes with significant sacrifice. Using 120mms vs a highly mobile spread out OKW infantry isn't very effective.

The 120mm is only found in 3 commanders, none of which have heavy tanks or tube artillery. Its the only tool I've seen that flips the early indirect paradigm of Axis superiority. So yea, it gives Soviets a big power bump vs Team Weapons in exchange for sacrificing the super late game tools to win, as 120mms get slaughtered by rocket arty (similar design space as Mortar Pits).

Seems fine, paradigm shifting doctrinal units are what Commanders are best for and not uncommon. Assault Grens, Veteran Squad Leader, and the SHTDs are all paradigm shifting commander abilities.

I don't think it needs any changes.

Axis iderect fire supperiority, that's a new one.

Axis iderect fire supperiority, that's a new one.

It depends which matchup we are talking about. USF and UKF really don't shine in the indirect fire department, unless you take the same 1-2 commanders always. Soviets on the other side have a very useful nondoctrinal mortar, strong nondoctrinal rocket artillery and a bunch of commanders with come with one of two doctrinal howitzers or the doctrinal 120mm mortar.

USF/UKF nondoctrinal -> definitely axis nondoctrinal indirect fire superiority
with commander choices this may look different

It depends which matchup we are talking about. USF and UKF really don't shine in the indirect fire department, unless you take the same 1-2 commanders always. Soviets on the other side have a very useful nondoctrinal mortar, strong nondoctrinal rocket artillery and a bunch of commanders with come with one of two doctrinal howitzers or the doctrinal 120mm mortar.

USF/UKF nondoctrinal -> definitely axis nondoctrinal indirect fire superiority
with commander choices this may look different

I don't really know about that. The new Mortar Pit has shown itself to be very effective, and USF have the earliest mortar in the game, as well as both the Pak Howie and Scott.

Ost's big thing is really the Werfer, which is definitely very good but comes rather late.

OKW have the Stuka, which is a pretty specialised bit of kit.

I'm not sure it's entirely clear-cut.

It depends which matchup we are talking about. USF and UKF really don't shine in the indirect fire department, unless you take the same 1-2 commanders always. Soviets on the other side have a very useful nondoctrinal mortar, strong nondoctrinal rocket artillery and a bunch of commanders with come with one of two doctrinal howitzers or the doctrinal 120mm mortar.

USF/UKF nondoctrinal -> definitely axis nondoctrinal indirect fire superiority
with commander choices this may look different

Well, since it was context of mortars.

Soviet PM-41 is pretty much on pair with ost mortar. It all comes to the fact who can land few hits first, both have chanses to do it with a first shot or do nothing. Both need to be very close to the target for maximal effect. Soviets can use flares to boost accuracy, Ost have fast firing mortar.

USF. Fast firing but low range mortar. It hits quite good, but the main disadvantage is range, you really need to get it close to the target. On open maps, yes its weaker then ost mortar, on maps with sight blockers, where you can get it closer, it performs some what on pair.

UKF. Commander mortar is a copy of USF one I belive. Without commander, yes, UKF struggle a bit vs mortars early, but you need to survive like first 3-4 mins to get your mortar pit, which shut downs Ost mortar play.

And OKW IGs sucks ass, when it comes to countering other inderects if its not mortar pit.

If we look at indirects over-all, then the only advantage axis have over allies - the fact that UKF\USF dont have stock rocket arty.

Poit was that 120mm mortar being at 2CP is a hard counter to ost heavy support weapons oppenings, which is true. But along side being hard counter to one particular cancerous strategy, it also just as effective against pretty much any other strategy.

The 120 mm is not very effective vs a mobile army (okw more so then ost) out side of a few lucky hits. Vs static play wich ost is more about it will do very well.

I didnt know it was so cheap to reinforce, this should be remedied esp since its also quite durable. Even putting it at 30 mp per model would be fine. Making merge a good option to reduce bleed and hurt the 120mm with actual bleed.

The 120 mm is not very effective vs a mobile army (okw more so then ost) out side of a few lucky hits. Vs static play wich ost is more about it will do very well.

I didnt know it was so cheap to reinforce, this should be remedied esp since its also quite durable. Even putting it at 30 mp per model would be fine. Making merge a good option to reduce bleed and hurt the 120mm with actual bleed.

Yeah I looked in the game and for comparison Leig reinforces for 22 per man and Pack Howitzer reinforces for 20 per man. I think that the 120mm could easily stay useful with a 20mp reinforce cost. Anything more and it's not really going to do anything, because of recrewing and merge.

EDIT: I'm not knowledgable with the mod tools I guess. Perhaps there's a way to keep reinforce cost high after recrew.

30 per man might be good or it might be too much, I don't know. I'll have to surrender the conversation to users more knowledgable about game balance.

And OKW IGs sucks ass, when it comes to countering other inderects if its not mortar pit.

If we look at indirects over-all, then the only advantage axis have over allies - the fact that UKF\USF dont have stock rocket arty.

Yeah it is pretty much the missing rocket artillery. But this is a huge disadvantage.

In addition IGs hardcounter UKF mortar pits, overall I would say UKF are the worst faction when it comes to indirect fire. Even if you look at doctrinal units: Land mattress is kind of meh and Sexton is clearly worse than Priest. USF is strong with Priest or Calliope depending on map, otherwise only medicore.

Soviets are strong at indirect fire overall.

Poit was that 120mm mortar being at 2CP is a hard counter to ost heavy support weapons oppenings, which is true. But along side being hard counter to one particular cancerous strategy, it also just as effective against pretty much any other strategy.

Yeah this tactic really gets Ostheer out of their comfort zone. But keep in mind two things:
1) You will need about two 120mm mortars plus a scouting tool like a standard mortar to really put pressure on your opponent. This is a big investment in static tools that makes you prone to counter attacks.
2) It is a doctrinal choice. Ostheere could got for a doctrinal aggressive playstyle for example with sprinting Assgrens to counter a more static soviet build. 120mm build won't succeed vs a constantly moving and pressuring army. Its not that there is no counterplay.

Overall I do think 120mm is finally quite good again after the last buff, but not op.

Yeah I looked in the game and for comparison Leig reinforces for 22 per man and Pack Howitzer reinforces for 20 per man. I think that the 120mm could easily stay useful with a 20mp reinforce cost. Anything more and it's not really going to do anything, because of recrewing and merge.

EDIT: I'm not knowledgable with the mod tools I guess. Perhaps there's a way to keep reinforce cost high after recrew.

30 per man might be good or it might be too much, I don't know. I'll have to surrender the conversation to users more knowledgable about game balance.

Cant speak for other users/abusers of the 120mm Mortar, but increasing reinforce cost doesn't really do anything. I only reinforce the mortar to 3 models especially if I have 2 of them. Need that sweet sweet POP CAP for late game. Could be the difference between a T3476 or 85.

120 mortars MUST be nerfed. Thats a point.