Compared to the maxim the mg42 is unparralleld. Soviet and usf need to tech towards it unlike ost okw and brits.
so what if sovs need to tech to get maxim. that tech is free. And 50 cal is superior to mg42.
Buff for 5 man grens
19 Apr 2021, 08:54 AM
#41
Posts: 1563
so what if sovs need to tech to get maxim. that tech is free. And 50 cal is superior to mg42.
19 Apr 2021, 09:53 AM
#42
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Main problem with VSL was - grenadiers werent made to be 5 men squad. Vet and stats are made to work only with 4 men squad.
Actually if VSL had hidden de-buffs, to actually reflect that grens are 5-men now, then even old VLS would have been alright imo.
If anything 5 men grens could be just a call-in unit, like if UKF will get raid sections, I see no reason why Ostheer cant have slightly weaker but 5 men Grenadier squad as a mainline call-in (or buildable) replacement, but with stats reflecting additional model.
But at the same time, it might overlap with Osttroopens a bit.
Actually if VSL had hidden de-buffs, to actually reflect that grens are 5-men now, then even old VLS would have been alright imo.
If anything 5 men grens could be just a call-in unit, like if UKF will get raid sections, I see no reason why Ostheer cant have slightly weaker but 5 men Grenadier squad as a mainline call-in (or buildable) replacement, but with stats reflecting additional model.
But at the same time, it might overlap with Osttroopens a bit.
19 Apr 2021, 10:15 AM
#43
Posts: 1563
Main problem with VSL was - grenadiers werent made to be 5 men squad. Vet and stats are made to work only with 4 men squad.
That's a pile bullshit. Their long range was weaker than 5man-section and their short range is on par with Rifles.
Their defensive stat form vet(pre damage reduction change) their RA was 0.63 which was slightly better than rifles at 0.635 and worse than sections at 0.624(pre-nerf). Section had a long range dps of 3.77 while vsl-grens had 3.1 .
What made 5-man grens problematic was the change to 0.8 damage reduction instead of 0.77 RA. That mean you couldn't easily kill them with both balistic or explosive damage. The same problem that Rangers had.
The retarded allied biased balance team just over nerfed these guys without even doing testing.
19 Apr 2021, 10:22 AM
#44
Posts: 1563
The value of the 5 man is taking your squishy 4 man squad and making is 25% more durable. That is the primary function. If you want firepower to ou take the lmh42 as it's primary function is to offset the squishy. Both upgrades have their uses and neither outright replaces the other this is an example of a good upgrade.
Ok here is a big problem with your assessment.
Yes this gives you 25% more durability. But that durability is worthless unless it actually allows you to do anything. With LMG's you can sit take the benefit of fighting in range where your fragility is not much of a concern but deal damage. But with 5-man Gren you don't have that option. Because not only are you still more frail compared to your opponents they also have more damage output at all ranges(save for maybe cons). All in all it not a great upgrade, it doesn't give you any useful benefit over lmg's.
19 Apr 2021, 10:35 AM
#45
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Ok here is a big problem with your assessment.
Yes this gives you 25% more durability. But that durability is worthless unless it actually allows you to do anything. With LMG's you can sit take the benefit of fighting in range where your fragility is not much of a concern but deal damage. But with 5-man Gren you don't have that option. Because not only are you still more frail compared to your opponents they also have more damage output at all ranges(save for maybe cons). All in all it not a great upgrade, it doesn't give you any useful benefit over lmg's.
Grens were never meant to work independently.
That applies to VSL too.
You don't know about 251 and 250, do you?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
19 Apr 2021, 11:01 AM
#46
Posts: 1289
so what if sovs need to tech to get maxim. that tech is free. And 50 cal is superior to mg42.
I doesnt cost much but it still isent free to get t2. Unless the word free changed its meaning. Or is ost t1 free as wel?
The .50 is also more expensive then the mg42 so that is the reason it is.
19 Apr 2021, 11:24 AM
#47
Posts: 472
so what if sovs need to tech to get maxim. that tech is free. And 50 cal is superior to mg42.
No it is not superial to mg 42. None of the default mgs are.
19 Apr 2021, 12:01 PM
#48
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
That's a pile bullshit. Their long range was weaker than 5man-section and their short range is on par with Rifles.
Their defensive stat form vet(pre damage reduction change) their RA was 0.63 which was slightly better than rifles at 0.635 and worse than sections at 0.624(pre-nerf). Section had a long range dps of 3.77 while vsl-grens had 3.1 .
What made 5-man grens problematic was the change to 0.8 damage reduction instead of 0.77 RA. That mean you couldn't easily kill them with both balistic or explosive damage. The same problem that Rangers had.
Alright, but what justise this comparing do? I mean, if Ost had only Grens to play with early on, then alright It would have make sence. But at the same time, while having perfomance which allow to compare VSL directly to Rifles, grens also had full access to Ost support weapons power of which is balanced around the fact that grens are 4 men glass-cannons.
On its own VSL is technically alright, but if you start throwing all support units Ost have into the mix, then they are not alright.
And timing is playing a huge role also.
The retarded allied biased balance team just over nerfed these guys without even doing testing.
They just soft disabled it, because they didnt want to spend time on fixing it. Nothing special, but at least they admitted that they will look at it in the future.
But I do agree that currect VSL is objectively shit. 5 models are not worth crippling your Grenadiers even more then G43.
19 Apr 2021, 12:30 PM
#49
Posts: 5279
Ok here is a big problem with your assessment.
Yes this gives you 25% more durability. But that durability is worthless unless it actually allows you to do anything. With LMG's you can sit take the benefit of fighting in range where your fragility is not much of a concern but deal damage. But with 5-man Gren you don't have that option. Because not only are you still more frail compared to your opponents they also have more damage output at all ranges(save for maybe cons). All in all it not a great upgrade, it doesn't give you any useful benefit over lmg's.
The benefit over the lmg is that you have an extra model. If you don't find that valuable enoggh then there is still the option for the lmg.. It's a 240mp squad that gets a snare for free, it's not going to perform like 280mo squads that have to tech for or lack their snare entirely.
#stalinwept
19 Apr 2021, 12:31 PM
#50
Posts: 416 | Subs: 1
I proposed returning some RA along with the StG, like 5%.
Apparently one modestly worse weapon and 10% RA is the difference between horrifically OP and useless, so it really shouldn't take much to fix them.
Apparently one modestly worse weapon and 10% RA is the difference between horrifically OP and useless, so it really shouldn't take much to fix them.
19 Apr 2021, 13:33 PM
#51
Posts: 1563
Or is ost t1 free as wel?
Well yes, ost t1 is free. Since it's basically pointless to skip it.
19 Apr 2021, 13:38 PM
#52
Posts: 1563
The benefit over the lmg is that you have an extra model. If you don't find that valuable enoggh then there is still the option for the lmg.. It's a 240mp squad that gets a snare for free, it's not going to perform like 280mo squads that have to tech for or lack their snare entirely.
And that extra model allows you to do what exactly??
Answer this question.
The G43 also has the benefit of mobile close-mid firepower over lmg. But it's considered shit.
19 Apr 2021, 14:46 PM
#53
Posts: 5279
And that extra model allows you to do what exactly??
Answer this question.
The G43 also has the benefit of mobile close-mid firepower over lmg. But it's considered shit.
Keeps you on the field longer. Let's you plink away longer. Keeps your snare from sitting in base when you need it more often. Iirc it also gives free medkits, see above.
If I have to explain what more health means I don't know why you are posting on the balance forum.
It shifts grens spec from glass cannon DPS to average health support (although it's above average for ost) if you want DPS GET THE DPS UPGRADE if you want durability GET THE DURABILITY UPGRADE. It's a choice, if one does fit with how you want to use grens, then don't use it. It doesn't mean it's worthless.
The best designed upgrades are NOT ones that you uniformly upgrade all your infantry with, because then it's obviously better than the stock option. It needs to be used in conjunction-to replace.
G43 is weak simply because it's on a 4man squad. The mobility is great but the squad is squishy as it's designed to fight at range. An extreme case would be why ass engies needed the extra man to be viable (because y'know, 25% more health makes a difference)
#stalinwept
19 Apr 2021, 14:53 PM
#54
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
The current G43 is considered shit because Grens have low EHP. The weapon profile then forces you to close in, losing the EHP so that you can't stay in the fight for long.
And that extra model allows you to do what exactly??
Answer this question.
The G43 also has the benefit of mobile close-mid firepower over lmg. But it's considered shit.
5 men Grens allow(ed) you to do exactly that: close in, because they gave a whole lot of EHP prior to the nerf.
19 Apr 2021, 14:53 PM
#55
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
I think ideally Ostheer mainline infantry should look like this:
Then the different squads would all have clear and defined roles. Osttruppen for fast T2 strats, LMG Grens for general purpose, G43 Grens for mobile and aggressive play, VSL Grens for a strong mid and late game with highly durable infantry that can stall for their support weapons / vehicles.
- LMG Grens same as now, as long range defensive specialists that are okay at A-move attacking too;
- Osttruppen pretty much same as now, for fast map control and cheap cannon fodder;
- Gren G43 upgrade to focus on close-mid range firepower with 3x G43, but with toned down moving DPS to avoid blobbing;
- Gren VSL upgrade to focus on high durability (but with a slower build up compared to Osttruppen) over firepower with 5th model and STG 44, but with current cooldown bonuses traded for the extra -10% received accuracy. Similar to 7 men Cons.
Then the different squads would all have clear and defined roles. Osttruppen for fast T2 strats, LMG Grens for general purpose, G43 Grens for mobile and aggressive play, VSL Grens for a strong mid and late game with highly durable infantry that can stall for their support weapons / vehicles.
19 Apr 2021, 14:56 PM
#56
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
- Gren G43 upgrade to focus on close-mid range firepower with 3x G43, but with toned down moving DPS to avoid blobbing;
...
There is very little reason to use 3 weapons in 4 men squads.
One should either use four for consistency or 2 for less DPS drops.
19 Apr 2021, 14:58 PM
#57
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
There is very little reason to use 3 weapons in 4 men squads.
One should either use four for consistency or 2 for less DPS drops.
All other G43 squads have 3 G43s. That is the consistency.
19 Apr 2021, 14:59 PM
#58
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
All other G43 squads have 3 G43s. That is the consistency.
And there is little reason for it for the ST/PG to have 3 also.
All it does is mess with squad DPS profile and change the DPS drop off in different ranges when they lose of entity.
Even so K98/3 G43 would made grenadier use the same weapons as g43 ST while having worse received accuracy.
19 Apr 2021, 15:06 PM
#59
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
There is very little reason to use 3 weapons in 4 men squads.
One should either use four for consistency or 2 for less DPS drops.
What? Why?
How many weapons are handed out with an upgrade is determined by balance only. If they need 2, 3 or 4 G43 is not a question of consistency, especially not if it is communicated to the players.
19 Apr 2021, 15:13 PM
#60
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
What? Why?
How many weapons are handed out with an upgrade is determined by balance only.
Weapon would be re-balanced according to number
...Gren G43 upgrade to focus on close-mid range firepower with 3x G43, but with toned down moving DPS to avoid blobbing...
the total DPs of the squad is balance issue the number of different weapons is design.
If they need 2, 3 or 4 G43 is not a question of consistency, especially not if it is communicated to the players.
Comminication is also a reason to avoid 75% of weapons replacement. It would be better if some standard was used for normal weapons (not lmg/AT) like half the weapons or all, in this case 2 or 4.
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