Late game performances of Volksgrenadiers and veterancy

To my knowlidge cons are the only unit to wich it only effects them, making it easier to do the math.

UKF Mills Bombs upgrade only affects Sections, to my knowledge, there's another example.

Though for both my understanding is that these techs shouldn't be considered "Part of the unit cost" even if it only affects a single unit, they're apparently to be considered part of the general "teching cost" of the faction.

I suppose there are arguments for and against this, but I think the latter opinion holds more water, personally.

this has been talked a lot of time, the total tech cost is still the same (if im not wrong okw is something like 5 more fuel) , allied faction simply have the option of side teching or rushing , axis faction pay in packages and can skip techs instead (usf can too tho)

Total tech cost is less important rather than at which time you are forced to pay for those costs.

First stage: 1st tech, medic, upgrades
Second stage: light vehicle phase
Third stage: medium tanks

For ex:

Difference at start, SU starts with 20f and OKW with 10f and the starting mp pool is 620mp for OKW (300 + 320) and 560mp for SU (170 + 390). So it's a +10f/-60mp difference.

SU: T2 + Grenades + Medics = 510/30
OKW: 1 truck + T1 + Medics = 270/35
_____

SU:
T2 + G + M + T3 = 710/105
OKW:
1 truck + T1 + M + Unit upgrade = 370/55
1 truck + T2 + Engineers = 370/75
2 trucks + T2 + T1 + Medics = 540/95
______

SU:
T2 + G + M + T3 + T4 = 990/205
OKW:
2 trucks + T1 + M + Unit upgrade + T3 + Panzer Req = 640/190
2 trucks + T2 + E + T3 + PQ = 640/210
3 trucks + T1 + M + T2 + T3 + PQ = 810/230


I hope i made the math right. I'm not opposed to try a -5% RA at vet 4/5 and/or swap the healing bonus from vet5 to vet4. But i don't think you can just put infantry to fight 1v1 and call it imbalanced or not when the circumstances at which they arrive at that point are different.

I hope i made the math right. I'm not opposed to try a -5% RA at vet 4/5 and/or swap the healing bonus from vet5 to vet4. But i don't think you can just put infantry to fight 1v1 and call it imbalanced or not when the circumstances at which they arrive at that point are different.

I still think it's more an issue with the Unit's design when compared to the role they're supposed to fill, rather than simply a numbers thing.

Total tech cost is less important rather than at which time you are forced to pay for those costs.

This is a pretty important distinction. Sov early game vs. OKW is harrowing with 3x conscripts 2 engie standard start against an s-pio 3-4 volks start. It's extremely predictable since the only way sovs can survive is stall to a T70. I feel like if you can keep your 3 cons alive to T4, then the additional performance is deserved. It's a lot less risky to do a T1 penal start... but then OKW is not fighting 7-man cons.

Its hard to caculate the right amount of cost from an entiere tier to the unlocks of lmg or snare since not every unit in the tier is as strong/valuable as the other. A lot of people believe no tech of any kind should ne added because of this. To my knowlidge cons are the only unit to wich it only effects them, making it easier to do the math.
And people need to stop with the cheap cons (wich they arent) beat more expensive voljs/grens and look at the bigger picture instead of those units in a vacuum.

Nades also only affect Rifles or Section so that is moot point.

Its true allies and okw dont need to tech to build main lines. But allies dont have units as strong as pgrens obers stock to back them up nor mg's as early or powerfull depending on the faction.
Ost has the earliest and strong lv fase as well punishing not teching at nades or zooks potentialy.

Your Joking right. AEC and Stuart arrives at the same time as ost LV and are significantly stronger.
Yeah and you get the MG because of the god awefull shit tier infantry you get. You know despite having an MG do you know why Brits don't function like OST because that is a shit design but allies cant have shit design.

Ost fields their medium before soviets get their first t34. So them reaching their final tech with even better units later is more a luxery problem then anything else.

Are you high???? If you think that you are much worse then your opponents. F t34's you can get t34-85's/KV-1's by the time OST can hit P4's.

People say cons are cheap because the have low reinforce costs, but forget they dropp a lot more models making it balanced.

They don't, they have far better RA than Volks

They don't, they have far better RA than Volks

That is exclusively at vet3, up until that point they have low dps and bad ra.

Conscripts get 1.4 accuracy at vet 2 not vet 3.

They also get -8% RA at vet 1

Worth stating that Conscripts also have an extra model over Volks/Sections/Rifles, and so strict RA comparisons need to be taken with that in mind.

I hope i made the math right. I'm not opposed to try a -5% RA at vet 4/5 and/or swap the healing bonus from vet5 to vet4. But i don't think you can just put infantry to fight 1v1 and call it imbalanced or not when the circumstances at which they arrive at that point are different.

well yea but generally already i dislike the current volks design , the stg are basically a worse bar with 2 weapon slot and undropppable, it's a over priced straight damage upgrade at all ranges (which in my opinion is bad design )

they are supposed to tank for obers right ? but they have pitiful RA compared to other main line, maybe change accuracy for more RA ?

honestly i would rework the vet and upgrades
option 1 buff vet with more RA and acc, remove stg as stock option and pass them to fire dock (increase the stg to 3), now mp 40 upgrade come stock instead so you either keep them as your meat shield long range with the vet to actually survive or close range unit

option 2 stg removed , added veteran squad leader upgrade, same size gives bonus RA and acc when in cover (basically the idea is since volks are conscripted troops to give a veteran to tell them what do in cover)

well yea but generally already i dislike the current volks design , the stg are basically a worse bar with 2 weapon slot and undropppable, it's a over priced straight damage upgrade at all ranges (which in my opinion is bad design )

they are supposed to tank for obers right ? but they have pitiful RA compared to other main line, maybe change accuracy for more RA ?

honestly i would rework the vet and upgrades
option 1 buff vet with more RA and acc, remove stg as stock option and pass them to fire dock (increase the stg to 3), now mp 40 upgrade come stock instead so you either keep them as your meat shield long range with the vet to actually survive or close range unit

option 2 stg removed , added veteran squad leader upgrade, same size gives bonus RA and acc when in cover (basically the idea is since volks are conscripted troops to give a veteran to tell them what do in cover)

This is only taking into account the Volks vs Cons match up, would that new design hold against USF/UKF?

TBH, if anything, i wouldn't make any drastic changes atm, specially since the last patch was so recent and we have a new one focused in commanders coming in the next months.

While still a small sample size, the new coh2stats size shows that OKW is not doing bad atm.

low key dont upgrade them if u want long range poweer

No, because penals don't underperform

Penals do have a single doctrinal upgrade, and a non-doctrinal upgrade - the PPSH from the VDV commander, which is completely useless, and stealing LMGs from the axis


The sole reason why they should have LMGs is to (improve their late game strength, let soviets have better long range infantry without having to use 360mp elite infantry) give Fritz a taste of his own medicine

low key dont upgrade them if u want long range poweer

Low key don't give foolish advises, the stg upgrade is an upgradr at all ranges

low key dont upgrade them if u want long range poweer

There is literally like 1-2 meters at the very edge of their range where the Sturmgewehr's theoretical DPS drops below the Kar 98k's theoretical DPS.

This is only taking into account the Volks vs Cons match up, would that new design hold against USF/UKF?

TBH, if anything, i wouldn't make any drastic changes atm, specially since the last patch was so recent and we have a new one focused in commanders coming in the next months.

While still a small sample size, the new coh2stats size shows that OKW is not doing bad atm.

Theoretically, if Volks were changed not to have their STG powerspike, Obers could be tweaked to arrive sooner, so I would say it would, yeah. It wouldn't necessarily even made a difference before the first truck is deployed.

Then volks should be cheaper to reinforce in late game?

Volks are already super cheap. And the test clearly shows Volks beat Cons at close or mid range.

I'm surprised to see Cons beat Volks at long range. Very skeptical about that. Perhaps because of the buff behind green cover. But out of cover Volks definitely win

Theoretically, if Volks were changed not to have their STG powerspike, Obers could be tweaked to arrive sooner, so I would say it would, yeah. It wouldn't necessarily even made a difference before the first truck is deployed.

Volksgrenadiers without MP 40's / StG 44's aren't really Volksgrenadiers though.

Theoretically, if Volks were changed not to have their STG powerspike, Obers could be tweaked to arrive sooner, so I would say it would, yeah. It wouldn't necessarily even made a difference before the first truck is deployed.

What I would have done honestly is change obersts, to be cheaper and arrive sooner, because imo the fact that they are un-usable without LMG (even after patch), is a waste potentual. And to balance it out, LMG could go up to match LMG price of Paras\Airborn.

That is exclusively at vet3, up until that point they have low dps and bad ra.

But they have 6 men. And they have 0.99 ra at vet1.