Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

So two (Three, the JLI and Sniper variants are still very different despite both being "Sniper" rifles) totally different types of weapon depending on how many you happen to be holding.

Yes, just like weapon crews and elite infantry bar one or two have different weapons then regular infantry.

That's good to know, what throws me off is the descriptions themselves, but as far as I was aware the g43s were generally meant to do the same thing for all units that upgrade to the weapon

You can ignore the descriptions, honestly.

The OST sniper G43 is a sniper rifle that literally cannot be fired on the move.

The JLI G43 is a crit-rifle that instakills models under an HP threshhold, has an inverse accuracy statistic, and is abysmal on the move, with I think a 10% moving accuracy.

"Elite" G43s (Jaeger Command (Totally different from Jaeger Light Infantry), Pgren, Stormtrooper) are exceptional rifles, primarily being close-range oriented, with strength out to midrange, and still being an upgrade over most bolt actions at literally every range... and also having superior moving accuracy to most weapons.

Non-elite G43s (Grens, etc) are similar to Elite G43s, same moving accuracy, still being best at close range... but have generally lower DPS than Elite G43s. Still an upgrade over bolt actions. The Gren and Fusilier ones have different DPS statistics, but broadly the same curve.

Yes, just like weapon crews and elite infantry bar one or two have different weapons then regular infantry.

How many of them are /completely/ different weapons to other variants of the same model? The closest comparison I can think of are elite vs non-elite LMGs... and they're different primarily in that one can fire on the move, not that they have totally different functionality.

Shocks and Conscripts both have PPSH, but one isnt suddenly an LMG because it's held by a different squad.

The more you know! I like learning about G43 upgrades, thanks! Yeah I knew that about the G43 sniper for Ostheer, I would assume that is for balance, also I would guess it would be pretty hard to one shot kill infantry on the move anyway. I'm surprised it doesn't have a slightly higher rate of fire since it's using a semi-auto but this is also probably for balance reasons. I heard historically German snipers prefered bolt action sniper rifles to semi-autos at the time, but eh, again this game is meant to be immersive and balanced for pvp, realism comes later.

However everything else you told me is new information to me. I may have to read back at this later as a reminder. I wish they would update the tooltip information for units, their upgrades, as well as commanders descriptions. Some of them seem really out of date and I think this is confusing to new players or players who are unaware of the balance changes

Shit like this is why nothing posted here gets taken seriously.

They are poor man Obersoldaten, no reason to use them over stock infantry but ambush and scouting with camo, and they are in a poor doctrine except stuka smoke scout

I'm surprised it doesn't have a slightly higher rate of fire since it's using a semi-auto but this is also probably for balance reasons.

Well, it does, though not by a huge amount. Ostensibly this is to account for the fact that allied squad sizes are larger, though the Soviet sniper does outperform the OST sniper relative to squad sizes.

The fact it doesnt fire on the move is a good thing, of course, I'm not debating the balance of the Sniper, merely that the same rifle has far too many disparate implementations across multiple squads. I can't imagine how AIDS a sniper that could fire on the move would be.

Well, it does, though not by a huge amount. Ostensibly this is to account for the fact that allied squad sizes are larger, though the Soviet sniper does outperform the OST sniper relative to squad sizes.

The fact it doesnt fire on the move is a good thing, of course, I'm not debating the balance of the Sniper, merely that the same rifle has far too many disparate implementations across multiple squads. I can't imagine how AIDS a sniper that could fire on the move would be.

Oh I don't want to debate the balance of the sniper either I don't really see any issues with the unit anyway. I didn't even take into account that if it was firing on the move that it would likely be a downgrade to the quality of the unit. Also you would know more than me on this subject

How many of them are /completely/ different weapons to other variants of the same model? The closest comparison I can think of are elite vs non-elite LMGs... and they're different primarily in that one can fire on the move, not that they have totally different functionality.

Shocks and Conscripts both have PPSH, but one isnt suddenly an LMG because it's held by a different squad.

Not all that many and they are distinct enough to the point where anyone with stable breathing should be able to tell which is which.

Not all that many and they are distinct enough to the point where anyone with stable breathing should be able to tell which is which.

Name a few, and let me know how they're different from one another in as dramatic a way as the G43s are.



I'm not sure why you think pointless inconsistency and lack of explanation by the game is fine because "You should just know it".

Do you honestly think that most players just inherently "know" all of these inconsistent quirks? People on this very forum are constantly mistaken as to how the G43 in particular even acts.

Give me one good reason for any of this to be the case.

I mean yeah that's kinda why I was saying they should update the descriptions of this game so they're more informative. Like I said a lot of them are out of date or just not providing a lot of information

...

From what i can remember:

STG: when you compare them between Sturmpio, PG, Volks and Obers.

Mosin: when you compare Guards vs anyone else

Name a few, and let me know how they're different from one another in as dramatic a way as the G43s are.

PTRS.
Guards one actually hits and kills infantry.

USF carbine vs elite carbine.

Soviet guard mosin is actually good on the move as well as long range, while con mosin is mid/close range primarily(yes, you can use it at long range too, but we're talking scenarios, where you wouldn't lose more then gain from engagement).

Weapon crews have completely different curve then their mainline equivalents.

LMGs behave very different when used on certain elite infantries(either massive performance boost, as with ober 34 or firing on the move which is not possible for regular infantry).

There is also BOYS AT rifle which behaves completely different on sniper and completely different on AT tommy section.

That would be couple of examples of the top of my head.

Flamethrowers behave completely different depending if infantry uses them or vehicle.

I'm not sure why you think pointless inconsistency and lack of explanation by the game is fine because "You should just know it".

Just because you don't see the point, doesn't mean its pointless. It simply means you lack the capacity to grasp broader picture.
But don't worry, this is exactly why forums exist, if you ever feel confused again, post a thread in strategy section and someone will explain to you how things work and you will no longer be confused.

Do you honestly think that most players just inherently "know" all of these inconsistent quirks? People on this very forum are constantly mistaken as to how the G43 in particular even acts.

I think most players who actually use them in game quickly get the grasp of what the weapon can do, you'd have to be exceptionally smooth brain nugget to not tell the difference between gren G43 and sniper G43, I mean sure, there are people who can't tell, but game isn't exactly balanced with intellectual amoebas in mind.

Give me one good reason for any of this to be the case.

Different troops with different purpose on the battlefield used same weapons.
Not every unique unit got snowflake fallshirmjeager treatment in ww2, where they got unique snowflake weapon designed just for them.
All, front line grenadiers, cannon fodder volksgrenadiers and snipers used both Kar98s and G43s.

So not only it makes complete sense why different units would use same weapons but use them in different ways, its hostoricaly accurate as a cherry on top.

From what i can remember:

STG: when you compare them between Sturmpio, PG, Volks and Obers.

Mosin: when you compare Guards vs anyone else

The only "real" outlier here is the Obersoldaten, really, and in their case they DO have a different weapon. The IR STG is obviously something different to a "regular" STG, even to the casual observer.

Regarding the Mosin: They're still broadly the same weapon among all users, they're merely more effective in the hands of differing units. The inconsistency here is the Guards' improved moving accuracy, not so much the performance. What i'm pointing out is mostly

I would agree that I should like to see some of the less glaring outliers brought a little more in-line, or at the VERY least there being actually accurate explanations on the unit cards for these weapons. There are so few weapons in the game that some degree of differing statistics are unavoidable, but in the case of the G43 in particular: There's already a viable alternative. The STG (Or the IR STG, even. That'd still be less stupid than them all having weird assault-rifle scoped G43s)

PTRS.
Guards one actually hits and kills infantry.

Congratulations, the PTRS acts the same between the two units, one is simply more accurate. Are you intentionally missing the point here, or do you genuinely not understand it?

USF carbine vs elite carbine.

Wow! Again, two weapons that are different in that one is "better" in the hands of elite infantry, not that they actually act differently in a meaningful way.

Soviet guard mosin is actually good on the move as well as long range, while con mosin is mid/close range primarily(yes, you can use it at long range too, but we're talking scenarios, where you wouldn't lose more then gain from engagement).

The Guards' mosin is the same type of weapon as the Conscripts' mosin. It is better at range thanks to it simply having higher DPS in general.

The higher moving accuracy is something I was unaware of though. That is a nonsensical inconsistency.

Weapon crews have completely different curve then their mainline equivalents.

You and I have a very, VERY different interpretation of the words "Completely different".

LMGs behave very different when used on certain elite infantries(either massive performance boost, as with ober 34 or firing on the move which is not possible for regular infantry).

The first actually relevant example, though one I already mentioned.

There is also BOYS AT rifle which behaves completely different on sniper and completely different on AT tommy section.

Correct, and this is also retarded, particularly as the Boys isnt even scoped. The UKF sniper should just have a scoped enfield and come at tier 0. This is literally the only example you've provided that's actually what I'm talking about.

Flamethrowers behave completely different depending if infantry uses them or vehicle.

"Flamethrowers" are a class of weapon, not a specific weapon. There isnt an inconsistency between infantry and vehicular flamethrowers, they arent the same weapon. If some vehicular flamethrowers do leave pools of flame, and others do not, then this would be an inconsistency that should really be looked at.

Just because you don't see the point, doesn't mean its pointless. It simply means you lack the capacity to grasp broader picture.
But don't worry, this is exactly why forums exist, if you ever feel confused again, post a thread in strategy section and someone will explain to you how things work and you will no longer be confused.

The broader picture being what, exactly? You keep pretending you're far more in the know than anyone else, but you really seem to be unable to ever back this egocentrism up. Please feel free to go into detail.

I think most players who actually use them in game quickly get the grasp of what the weapon can do, you'd have to be exceptionally smooth brain nugget to not tell the difference between gren G43 and sniper G43, I mean sure, there are people who can't tell, but game isn't exactly balanced with intellectual amoebas in mind.

And yet people are constantly misunderstanding the various G43s. Weird, isnt it; Almost like you're entirely unable to see the issue because you already know the trick.

Most players, until it is /specifically/ pointed out to them, believe the G43 to be a long-ranged weapon, regardless of who wields it.

Different troops with different purpose on the battlefield used same weapons.

Jump back to quoted post19 Apr 2021, 23:12 PMKatitof

Not every unique unit got snowflake fallshirmjeager treatment in ww2, where they got unique snowflake weapon designed just for them.

This literally has nothing to do with anything. Congratulations on the non-sequitur.

Jump back to quoted post19 Apr 2021, 23:12 PMKatitof

All, front line grenadiers, cannon fodder volksgrenadiers and snipers used both Kar98s and G43s.

So not only it makes complete sense why different units would use same weapons but use them in different ways, its hostoricaly accurate as a cherry on top.

Cute, but not the case. You're welcome to provide some historical basis for CQB assault troops being assigned scoped G43s, of the same configuration that were assigned to Snipers.

You know what assault troops actually got given? SMGs and STGs. You know what would better fit the profile of what Grenadiers, Pgrens, and Stormtroopers get, given their G43s act as what could be easily described as "Assault rifles"? STGs.

More love to command P4 plz,keep have barrage ability or maybe increase sight to 50？Default have armor skirt and share EXP like HT？

Most players, until it is /specifically/ pointed out to them, believe the G43 to be a long-ranged weapon, regardless of who wields it.

I don't quite understand why people see a quick-firing semi-automatic rifle and think "this is a long range rifle". In my experience most people believe this because of misinformation peddled by members of the community who also don't know how the mechanics work. Greyshot did this in his patch note review video where he was confused thinking the Panzerfusilier G43's were long range rifles, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was a source of this problem due to his following.

The SVT-40 and M1 Garand are both semi-automatic rifles and they are best used at close-to-mid range. The G43 is a semi-automatic rifle and it is best used at close-to-mid range. I'm not sure why this is confusing. It is worth adding that the G43 DMR on OKW's Jaeger Light Infantry Recon is not an original part of the unit but was added during a redesign, so it's not like it's a misconception stemming from old vs new, because the SAR profile G43 is the original.

This was my post #4848

I don't quite understand why people see a quick-firing semi-automatic rifle and think "this is a long range rifle". In my experience most people believe this because of misinformation peddled by members of the community who also don't know how the mechanics work. Greyshot did this in his patch note review video where he was confused thinking the Panzerfusilier G43's were long range rifles, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was a source of this problem due to his following.

The SVT-40 and M1 Garand are both semi-automatic rifles and they are best used at close-to-mid range. The G43 is a semi-automatic rifle and it is best used at close-to-mid range. I'm not sure why this is confusing. It is worth adding that the G43 DMR on OKW's Jaeger Light Infantry Recon is not an original part of the unit but was added during a redesign, so it's not like it's a misconception stemming from old vs new, because the SAR profile G43 is the original.

This was my post #4848

SVT/M1/G43 where meant to use the Carbine profile that is designed for mid to far and serves as the middle ground between bolt action (far) and assault rifle like MP-44 which is mid to close.

What should imo be included in the Patch

Command tank
Lower pop and XP to match Ostwind, fix gun (increase close penetration as a minimum)

Reason:
The unit dashes less damage than PzIV and is closer to Ostwind pop and XP value should reflect that.

Fix CAS commander

Reason:
too many mu abilities moving Luft commander here could help allot.

Stug-E
Fix vet 1 ability.
Reason:
A shot that does 40 damage is simply a joke.

Panzer-J
Increase XP value and increase rear armor to PzIV vet 2 level. Consider to redesign the unit to have a gun with Less AOE but better penetration to reduce overlap with PzIV

Reason:
The unit has lower XP value than PzIV
The unit has the same rear armor of PzIV and does not get a bonus
The unit overlap and could add more to the table if it performed better vs allied heavy tanks


MHT 250/7
Increase CD on incendiary barrage and lower scatter

Reason:
The unit deliver damage inconstantly when using Inc.Barrage.

FRS
Change aura to a timed one

Reason:
Passive aura should be avoided when possible

Officer
Reduce reinforcement time

Reason:
Take longer than other unit to reinforce

MOP
Reduce cost of flare it too expansive compared both to Soviet mortar and UKF early warning.

I have a question.

Why not just combine the bunkers with the Forward Supply Station instead of having pretty much 2 abilities that do the same thing?

It would be similar to the Soviet forward base where you could use it on neutrally garrisoned buildings but if you need it somewhere where there is no such building you could build a repair and medical concrete bunker which can also reinforce as well as heal units like the current defensive ability or whatever it's called.

That way the Defensive doctrine which also fits the bill for the ability would also receive the addition and there'd be less overlap with abilities that basically do the same exact thing, bring it more in line with the rest, again a prime example being the Soviet one.

A forward retreat point which you could somehow unlock would also be nice in my opinion, especially in team games since Ost still remains the only Army not to have it entirely.

I don't quite understand why people see a quick-firing semi-automatic rifle and think "this is a long range rifle"

I assume because the weapon upgrade icon has a scope. I've asked the UI guys to remove that on all the "assault rifle" profile G43s. And to add a passive UI icon (similar to the elite Bren/bazooka icons) for the sniper variant on JLI.

I'd like to open up the topic of G43 upgrades on OST infantry:

Currently, they do not provide much bonus.

Graphs:
Show Spoiler

I focus mostly on the DPS/POP, since I think this metric is worth a little bit more than the raw values. All numbers are late game (fully vetted). Bear in mind that the graphs neglect abilities.

Grenadiers:
- LMG Grens have a very flat DPS curve. Currently they function fine. I'd use this as benchmark to assess other upgrades
- The new VSL upgrade trades their DPS on the long range for a tiny nudge in short range DPS and obviously a good chunk of EHP bonus. I think this is fine, too.
- G43 upgrades give a good boost to close range DPS, but lose heavily from mid to long. It looks like a more emphasized curve of the VSL upgrade, but without getting as much EHP for it.
- I'll include the "power" metric, although it is still under both construction and debate. HP was slightly weighted according to what I saw so far works decently well. VSL upgrade is still pretty strong, although the LMG has its niche when looking at the power/POP graph. I think this is how it should roughly be. G43 Grens really suck in this metric though. They do not get enough DPS to counter the EHP advantage of the VSL upgrade. It is a slightly more aggressive unit, but overall still a worse one.

I'll predict here and now that the current changes are not enough. Long range DPS is worth more than short range DPS. G43s force me to close in with a relatively squishy squad. They have some advantages such as moving DPS, but I doubt it is really worth it when I have to assume that I lose 1-2 models already on the approach.


PGrens:
- I know some people like them. They were also used in previous tourneys, but I can't remember when I saw them last in the competitive scene. Personally, I also found them underwhelming. They are supposed to specialize PGrens at all ranges and add more DPS long range. But their DPS only gets better on the last 5-7 meters. Even if we include moving DPS, it is still the same. Standard PGrens win big on closer ranges.
- Power-wise the same thing: Less DPS, same EHP (or did I forget something) -> less power.

There is just no good reason to get G43s on PGrens. You just pay mun, gimp their DPS on almost all ranges while giving... interrogation? Really? That's probably the most expensive ability unlock there is.

If they are supposed to be all range specialists with good moving DPS, they need better long range DPS. Or the StG needs a more refined profile to have higher short-mid DPS while decreasing faster on the long range. Otherwise they won't have a niche.

anyone feels this commander patch changes too many things, hard to keep track and adjust my gameplay