Stuka dive bomb to be added in another commander

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Posts: 486

I'd like to keep Stuka Dive Bomb out of common use, as it violates the general rules of off-maps and impacts players with specific hardware set-ups differently. It doesn't use smoke effects, requires directional sound, and effects control points all of which are unique to SDB.

Give a different off-map for howitzer control that doesnt punish poor/slow players as much. Maybe light artillery, or some kind of bombing run.

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1 Mar 2021, 20:32 PMgeneral_gawain

First about howitzers:
...

For
Ostheeer try the Stuka, Stuka frag and the Railway

soviet try the PTAB

USF try the TOT, 155 from WC51 and the IR Pathfinders

UKF try precision, Air S. OP., Concentrated fire operation.

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1 Mar 2021, 20:32 PMgeneral_gawain

First about howitzers:

- Ost has 2 (Edit: sorry there are 3) out of 22 commanders with 100% destruction plus 1 with a decent chance
- OKW has 4 out of 9 commanders with 100% destruction
- Soviet has 2 out of 22 commanders with 100% destruction
- UKF has 1 out of 9 commanders with 100% destruction
- USF has 1 out of 9 commanders with 100% destruction plus 1 with a decent chance

So Ost is just about average here, only faction which stands out is OKW. So there is no reason for me to rework only Ostheer at this point.

I think you got the numbers wrong.

OH:
Railway artillery: 2 (first shot guaranteed 100% accuracy)
Fragmentation bomb: 3 with say like 15/20% chance to destroy it, most of the time it's decrewed with like 10/20% HP left

Soviet:
PTAB: not reliable at all. Too much scatter. But sometimes (5-10%) it destroys it or damages the weapon to 0% HP but crew is still alive.

UKF:
Precision Barrage: 1
Concentrated Fire operation: 1
Air supremacy: 1
Concentrarion barrage: unreliable but will get it decrewed and highly damaged (similar to OH fragmentation)

Then there's plenty of other abilities which will get the weapon decrewed but not destroyed.

And as Vipper mention, there's also some units which can call offmap but those can have a harder time reaching objective.

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Posts: 1958

1 Mar 2021, 20:41 PMPip

I think Zeroing Arty still obliterates any emplacement, even if they're braced.

It does, but it should since you have to maintain LOS. I haven't seen anyone use it on emplacements in awhile.

Close the pocket also wipes emplacements. It's also hard to pull off.

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1 Mar 2021, 22:10 PMelchino7

OH Vanilla doesn't have access to a Tiger commander.
SU doesn't have access to a ISU

Those are far more unique than an offmap which 99% of the time is used to nuke a single thing.

I mean, really, the only actually unique thing about the Stuke Divebomb is the lack of warning smoke... though the Jericho Trumpets are more than enough warning

Units (and even some abilities) are a lot more interesting than any offmap, so I'd agree that a Tiger or an ISU is much preferable to the Stuka. I still fucking hate facing the ISU without an Elefant or Jagdtiger though.

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1 Mar 2021, 22:10 PMelchino7

OH Vanilla doesn't have access to a Tiger commander.
SU doesn't have access to a ISU

look if we went that rout we'd be here all day. Ambush training, Jaeger G43 package, AI strafe, supply drops and more are all unique and locked behind a pay/grind wall. Why take away a vanilla commander ability out right and not give it back. That a really stupid way to look at this

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1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PMelchino7

I think you got the wrong numbers,

Don't think so. I was talking about 100% guaranted kills only (not decrewing).

1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PMelchino7

OH:
Railway artillery: 2 (first shot guaranteed 100% accuracy)
Fragmentation bomb: 3 with say like 15/20% chance to destroy it, most of the time it's decrewed with like 10/20% HP leftreaching objective.

OH = 3 plus 1 decent chance
OH has Stuka dive bomb on three commanders = 100% destroyed
Railway artillery sometimes hits slightly next to the howitzer only decrewing it, but chances are high for destroying it. Seems to me it still has some scatter on the first hit. Thats the one commander with the decent chance I talked about.

1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PMelchino7

Soviet:
PTAB: not reliable at all. Too much scatter. But sometimes (5-10%) it destroys it or damages the weapon to 0% HP but crew is still alive.

Soviet = 2
Soviet has IL2-Bombing run on 2 commanders = 100% destroyed

1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PMelchino7

UKF:
Precision Barrage: 1
Concentrated Fire operation: 1
Air supremacy: 1
Concentrarion barrage: unreliable but will get it decrewed and highly damaged (similar to OH fragmentation)

UKF = 1 (and yeah, here I missed the decent one in form of Concentration Artillery Operations)
Only Precision barrage will get you a 100% guaranted kill.

1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PMelchino7

Then there's plenty of other abilities which will get the weapon decrewed but not destroyed.

Yes

1 Mar 2021, 23:12 PMelchino7

And as Vipper mention, there's also some units which can call offmap but those can have a harder time reaching objective.

Depending on gamemode, map size and map design you can swap "harder" with "impossible". So we shouldn't include them as a counter to howitzers, more something like a counter to static frontline positions.

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2 Mar 2021, 07:42 AMgeneral_gawain

...
Railway artillery sometimes hits slightly next to the howitzer only decrewing it, but chances are high for destroying it. Seems to me it still has some scatter on the first hit. Thats the one commander with the decent chance I talked about.
...

Railway artillery has 1 shot (think the last one that has not scatter) if I remember correctly. It should always take out a howitzer if aimed on it.

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2 Mar 2021, 08:02 AMVipper

Railway artillery has 1 shot (think the last one that has not scatter) if I remember correctly. It should always take out a howitzer if aimed on it.

Thx, then we would have (first number = commander with offmap with 100% kill guarantee / second number = total commanders):

OH: 4 / 22
OKW: 4 / 9
Sov: 2 / 22
UKF 2 / 9 (since it has a copy of Railway Artillery)
USF 1 / 9 (since 240mm has no aimed hit as far as I know)

Edit: Prepatch OH had 1 more, Soviet had 2 more. I do think this should be reverted by granting the removed ability to other less attractive commanders to hamper artillery slugfest in 3vs3 and 4vs4. Maybe even giving OH / Sov / UKF and USF one commander more with the ability to kill howitzers with offmap. In the end this abilities are still too expensive to spam them, so it shouldn't be a problem.

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2 Mar 2021, 09:05 AMgeneral_gawain

Thx, then we would have (first number = commander with offmap with 100% kill guarantee / second number = total commanders):

OH: 4 / 22
OKW: 4 / 9
Sov: 2 / 22
UKF 2 / 9 (since it has a copy of Railway Artillery)
USF 1 / 9 (since 240mm has no aimed hit as far as I know)

Edit: Prepatch OH had 1 more, Soviet had 2 more. I do think this should be reverted by granting the removed ability to other less attractive commanders to hamper artillery slugfest in 3vs3 and 4vs4. Maybe even giving OH / Sov / UKF and USF one commander more with the ability to kill howitzers with offmap. In the end this abilities are still too expensive to spam them, so it shouldn't be a problem.

TOT should be moved away from Priest to another commander and probably have a price increase since it one of the cheapest counters...

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2 Mar 2021, 08:02 AMVipper

Railway artillery has 1 shot (think the last one that has not scatter) if I remember correctly. It should always take out a howitzer if aimed on it.

It is the first one that goes dead center.

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2 Mar 2021, 09:45 AMHannibal

It is the first one that goes dead center.

Thanks for the clarification.

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it's indeed the 1st shell of railway arty that has low scatter and will land within a 5 m circle around the cast location, while the other two have a 20 m scatter radius. it also has a smaller AoE than the last two shots, making it totally possible to miss some crew models if they're spaced a bit wider or to deal less than the critical hp damage to the gun itself

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2 Mar 2021, 07:42 AMgeneral_gawain

I was also saying which are guaranteed killing. Player input not using the ability dead center or aligned is not considered.

OH: there are 2 commanders with Railway artillery. Festung and Osttruppen
Use this site (coh2.win) for commander abilities. Just click on an ability and it will show all commanders with it.

UKF: all the 3 commanders that i listed will kill a Howitzer. The only unreliable one which is much better than fragmentation bombing is Concentration barrage. I made some test way back in the past, but your chances improve if you can keep vision on it.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105234/il2-precision-strike-seems-uncounterable/page/7#post_id818865

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2 Mar 2021, 15:17 PMelchino7

I was also saying which are guaranteed killing. Player input not using the ability dead center or aligned is not considered.

OH: there are 2 commanders with Railway artillery. Festung and Osttruppen
Use this site (coh2.win) for commander abilities. Just click on an ability and it will show all commanders with it.

Yeah, thx for that link. I overlooked one of the railway artilleries. That adds up to five guaranted kills with the three stuka dive bombs. Seems Soviets are on the backfoot here by loosing two of their IL-2 bombing runs. Ostheer lost 1 out of 6, Soviet 2 out of 4. All other factions have a better saturation with howitzer killing abilities. That should be adressed soon with the next patch.

2 Mar 2021, 15:17 PMelchino7

UKF: all the 3 commanders that i listed will kill a Howitzer. The only unreliable one which is much better than fragmentation bombing is Concentration barrage. I made some test way back in the past, but your chances improve if you can keep vision on it.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/105234/il2-precision-strike-seems-uncounterable/page/7#post_id818865

Are you sure Air Supremacy kills always after it was nerfed? The bombs seem to scatter random over a large area.

The thing about the vision is true, but it is not very realistic to keep constant sigth on a howitzer. it is much more realistic that a plane flies over and you trigger the ability the moment you get sight. The plane can loose sight or get shoot down. I always test with FoW by building a howitzer, giving it to AI and using a plane plus ability. That way Concentration barrage will decrew most of the time as it seems.

Posts: 1958

4 Mar 2021, 00:19 AMgeneral_gawain

Are you sure Air Supremacy kills always after it was nerfed? The bombs seem to scatter random over a large area.

I haven't had Supremacy fail to kill a howitzer in the 4-5 times I've tried it.

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4 Mar 2021, 00:57 AMGrumpy

I haven't had Supremacy fail to kill a howitzer in the 4-5 times I've tried it.

Thx for your comment. Yeah, I tried it myself a moment ago a couple of times and it destroyed it every time. Maybe I didn't know because I play this commander wy to rarely. While comamndos are good it is one of this bad designed commanders which has 4 of 5 comamnder abilities with munition cost. you are better of taking one of the other two commanders with Commandos, they do have a better mix of abilities.

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1 Mar 2021, 16:35 PMZeroZeroNi

But it is the most efficinet means though. But thats not the point. All other faction have a heavy off map in the commander they are given.

Sovs have it in combined arms army, USF has time on target, UKF pretty much always has that and OKW has panzer commander upgrade.

Mortar HT Incendiary Rounds would like a word with you. Though I'll admit that adding the bomb to another commander is worth an idea during the commander revamp as an option

Posts: 1958

4 Mar 2021, 01:07 AMgeneral_gawain

Thx for your comment. Yeah, I tried it myself a moment ago a couple of times and it destroyed it every time. Maybe I didn't know because I play this commander wy to rarely. While comamndos are good it is one of this bad designed commanders which has 4 of 5 comamnder abilities with munition cost. you are better of taking one of the other two commanders with Commandos, they do have a better mix of abilities.

I agree with your comments on the design of the commander. You can't use most of the abilities because assault and Supremacy cost 310muni's combined. Supremacy needs to have the long cooldown and cost a lot because of how potent it is.

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4 Mar 2021, 01:09 AMEtherealDragon

Mortar HT Incendiary Rounds would like a word with you. Though I'll admit that adding the bomb to another commander is worth an idea during the commander revamp as an option

Mortar HT can get countered by mortar pit(well it used to before don't know if it will now) though. I like the incendiary on mortar HT i liked it even more when it was 5 round than 3 cause the stupid balance dipshits decided that OKW should get a flame mortar barrage and ost can't have better shit than okw.

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Willy Pete: It combined well with most slowing abilities, not just ram stuns
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Willy Pete: Only??? I think not being able to shoot it down and the ramp up effect also had something to do with it
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Willy Pete: Really
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aerafield: AT overwatch was broken only because it came with the faction of T34 ramming
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adamírcz: Might be onto somethin here, combine side armour existing, maps where flanking is a viable option, and hopefully also heavies actually being less manouverable than mediums (lookin at you coh2), and it might be fun gameplay
17 Feb 2025, 13:39 PM

Willy Pete: Shouldn't coh3 heavies actually have insane front armor values? The glory days of 400+ Kt armor wouldn't be as bad when side armor is a thing. Not to say its a good idea lol
14 Feb 2025, 23:14 PM

aerafield: But then again, maybe CoH3 superheavies should actually have insane armor values because the whole game is designed for the clumsy & inept anyway

14 Feb 2025, 23:04 PM

aerafield: It's like you have to coordinate an entire orchestra of abilities and the correct units, meanwhile your opponent just clicks his 1 superheavy tank occasionally...
14 Feb 2025, 23:01 PM

aerafield: the giga frontal armor also made these units too oppressive in average or low ELO games
14 Feb 2025, 22:59 PM

aerafield: Massive HP pool but reasonable amount of armor is way healthier design
14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM

aerafield: Say what you want, but the titanium frontal armor design of coh2 superheavies was bullshit. Too many bad players not getting punished for their bad micro because penetration RNG carries them
14 Feb 2025, 22:57 PM

Willy Pete: Also the attack ground with the pak40 looked perfect, that Pershing should be dead
14 Feb 2025, 19:18 PM

Willy Pete: Ahh just saw the other one that died. Some bad rng I think but there was an AT gun at med range for a chunk of that fight
14 Feb 2025, 19:14 PM

Willy Pete: Which KT? I saw one got almost deleted but it also showed its side to a hellcat AND the m5. I think the player even admitted he got lucky
14 Feb 2025, 19:10 PM

Lady Xenarra: I understand that the devs want to sell the Allied part of the DLC, but the KT got swiss cheesed like a COH2 bunker on treads

14 Feb 2025, 15:16 PM

SupremeStefan: They should make dlc separataly for axis and alies
14 Feb 2025, 10:28 AM

SupremeStefan: 25$ is actually a ok price for 40 abilites = 8 commanders = 4 battlegroups. But problem is that it comes in bundle
14 Feb 2025, 10:24 AM

Willy Pete: Have they shown the actual trees yet for the new commanders? Skimmed through the deep dive today, didnt see em
13 Feb 2025, 22:29 PM

Rosbone: Big Tonk boners incoming

13 Feb 2025, 17:38 PM

donofsandiego: Probably not
12 Feb 2025, 14:57 PM

Lone-Wolf: Hi guys. Error code -4. Any fixes?
08 Feb 2025, 17:09 PM

donofsandiego: Probably not
07 Feb 2025, 16:57 PM

SkYisTheLimiT_CoH: any coh2.org admin there ?
07 Feb 2025, 12:43 PM

Lady Xenarra: Ever the contrarian, aerafield.
07 Feb 2025, 11:59 AM

aerafield: I havent seen the new units in action yet (whose BGs will not be purchased by too many people as they are pretty expensive I recon), but I can say with 100% confidence that the Pershing needs a buff
07 Feb 2025, 02:31 AM

Lady Xenarra: I would think lots more players would come/return since there's so many iconic units being added in the new BGs. I just don't want to hear another 8+ yrs of Pershing need buff complaints
06 Feb 2025, 23:22 PM

adamírcz: If I had my supply of copium, Id say they might at least get enough money to not have to wait 5 months with problems that should be a matter of bi-weekly hotfix
06 Feb 2025, 23:10 PM

adamírcz: I mean, its overpriced,
06 Feb 2025, 23:10 PM

Rosbone: Will it help or hurt the current player base is the real question. Should add more players, but may drive many away.
06 Feb 2025, 19:17 PM

Rosbone: Yes you too can play with a persdhing for the low price of $24.99 USD. Or be the poor schlub who gets his rectum reconfigured who doesnt have the latest pay to win stuffs.
06 Feb 2025, 19:16 PM

donofsandiego: persdhing in coh 3? 😳
06 Feb 2025, 18:42 PM

Rosbone: @aerafield Ahhh, I think I made a pershing like twice in my life since that commander is pretty bad in 4s.
05 Feb 2025, 23:20 PM

aerafield: @Rosbone coh2 pershing has the same ability so, whatever. Though it's probably gonna be a 30 seconds ability to make it super broken pay to win, then 2 months later it will get "hotfixed" into a skillshot like coh2 pershing
05 Feb 2025, 22:00 PM

Rosbone: How do we feel about Pershing shooting thru multiple buildings?
05 Feb 2025, 19:43 PM

Rosbone: I am just happy Relic was smart enough to put this out now because the community was falling asleep waiting 3 months between patches. And a new/old map was shown

05 Feb 2025, 19:38 PM

aerafield: Not even the trailer can hide the trash sound effects
05 Feb 2025, 18:46 PM

Lady Xenarra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSvwH2mXje8 Well this should result in 'interesting' reactions...

05 Feb 2025, 18:43 PM

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