Penals, the Elephant in the room

Fully agree.
Lets come up with ideas how to buff sniper and M3 in soviet thread together.

Great then stop disagreeing with my every post and start making suggestions.

Rifles work very well actually, having AT nade and all and vet making them very durable, allowing them to stay longer in combat under small arms fire. RETs are simply cheaper and that's all, but it does not mean rifles are not viable for the role.

VGs have no AT, PFs do, but I don't see anyone complaining about them despite initial(including mine) concerns.

Regardless of what you claim AT riflemen are not popular.

If PF designed is the correct one then it should be implement to Penal also because PF are UP when they are build.

I have no idea why you would ever mention IS at all, knowing how they function other then "for the sake of an argument.

It does not matter how you want to label PGs, they are, just like Penals, an AI specialist with AT upgrade.
You can't pretend they don't count just because of different weapon profile and other semantics, I have never said "rifle infantry", I said "strong AI infantry".

You are the one arguing semantics here not me I am simply pointing out that PG and Penal are used differently. Penal building include 3-4 Penal available from 1 while PG come later and only 1-2 are usually build.

Given the current state of the game and from my awesome 5 minute thought full rework redesign plan which has no flaws whatsoever or any chance of backfiring this is what i came with. /s

---Support weapon company (T2) becomes T1. No further changes.

---Special Rifle comp (T1) becomes T2. Cut cost by half.
-New T2 requires T1 and it becomes an optional tier. T3 requires T1 and T4 requires T3.
-Penals becomes analog to PG once again (increase cost and buff). Maybe balance them around been a 5 man squad and not sure how historically correct could be to give them zooks cause that would solve the gap of Soviets having a real AT infantry unit to deal with heavy TDs in team games now that we plan on nerfing ram (and probable in the future IL2).
-Sniper can be given utility buffs.
-M3 can see further buffs now that it arrives at a later timing.

Yeah I love this idea. Tier 1 has always been a cheesy risk/reward tier because of lack of support weapons, especially AT guns. If M3 wasn't available at the very start of game like it is now, it could get a lot of buffs without being too cheesy and OP.

Then penals is not a real solution but just a sweep that moves problem under the rug.

Funny thing is that you claim conscripts "do not cut it" while many people claim that the same applies to both VG and Grenadiers. So if all mainlines infantries do not cut then "semi-elite" simply to belong in the same time frame.

Calling a solution that works "not a real solution" is just you being too prideful to change your opinion on Penal troops.

There are many units that don't cut it by themselves but require other units to supplement them to make the faction as a whole operate properly. See main battle tanks supplemented by TDs for example. There is no reason why making combined arms play work better than single unit spam is 'not a real solution'.

Great then stop disagreeing with my every post and start making suggestions.

I am disagreeing exclusively with the ones that make no sense what so ever.
I will always agree with a good idea and spot on problem.
But that's not the case for 99 out of 100 suggestions you make.

Regardless of what you claim AT riflemen are not popular.

And regardless of what you claim, penal spam is not popular nor strong.

If PF designed is the correct one then it should be implement to Penal also because PF are UP when they are build.

I have never said its correctly designed.
I have said AT upgrade is not problematic there.

You are the one arguing semantics here not me I am simply pointing out that PG and Penal are used differently. Penal building include 3-4 Penal available from 1 while PG come later and only 1-2 are usually build.

Yes, they are used differently.
Does not change the fact that both are AI specialist units with AT ugprade.
No, penal builds do not include 3-4 penals from get go, because penal meta is dead for a long time, people learned to survive early game against them and they are roflstomped in mid and late game.
Currently you will see 1 penal for AT, 2 at best with cons being backbone infantry.

Yeah I love this idea. Tier 1 has always been a cheesy risk/reward tier because of lack of support weapons, especially AT guns. If M3 wasn't available at the very start of game like it is now, it could get a lot of buffs without being too cheesy and OP.

It's not that cheese is bad, but most of the COH playerbase are lactose intolerant. The cheese was removed and now you have a tier which lacks the punch but has all the risks still attached to them.

It's not that cheese is bad, but most of the COH playerbase are lactose intolerant. The cheese was removed and now you have a tier which lacks the punch but has all the risks still attached to them.

That's very well put.

We basically have small scale "brits post nerfs" case, where gimmicks were nerfed or removed and we're left with core in need of proper buffs to make up for lack of crutches.

Calling a solution that works "not a real solution" is just you being too prideful to change your opinion on Penal troops.

There are many units that don't cut it by themselves but require other units to supplement them to make the faction as a whole operate properly. See main battle tanks supplemented by TDs for example. There is no reason why making combined arms play work better than single unit spam is 'not a real solution'.

What you are suggesting is to buff conscripts because Penal do not cut it. That does not make sense.

Grenadier do not cut and they are simply replaced by osstruppen/assault grenadier not supplemented.

VG do not cut so people simply play Ostheer.

Once more if 3 out 5 mainlines infatry do not "cut it" the problem lies elsewhere and they should not be buffed, but this a debate for another thread.

What you are suggesting is to buff conscripts because Penal do not cut it. That does not make sense.

He is saying that combined arms are stronger then single unit spam you unpeeled orange.

Grenadier do not cut and they are simply replaced by osstruppen/assault grenadier not supplemented.

*when spammed with no support at all

VG do not cut so people simply play Ostheer.

*in late game with no support at all

Once more if 3 out 5 mainlines infatry do not "cut it" the problem lies elsewhere and they should not be buffed, but this a debate for another thread.

Yeah, specifically in the part where these 3 factions with weak and cheap infantry try to play like the 2 other faction that are balanced around self sufficient, expensive strong mainlines.

But that is not balance problem.
That's a potato for a brain Timmy thinking he can use grens like they were rifles despite access to multiple supporting units very early into the game.

Even penals, despite you being so wrongly and stubbornly convinced otherwise, do NOT work when spammed with no support now that they are balanced and people know how to deal with them.

What you are suggesting is to buff conscripts because Penal do not cut it. That does not make sense.

Grenadier do not cut and they are simply replaced by osstruppen/assault grenadier not supplemented.

VG do not cut so people simply play Ostheer.

Once more if 3 out 5 mainlines infatry do not "cut it" the problem lies elsewhere and they should not be buffed, but this a debate for another thread.

No, I am saying conscripts don't cut it and they should be supplemented with proper HMGs or Penal troops. So that the faction does not hinge on T70. The reason why people don't supplement their conscripts is the excessive upgrage cost of Conscripts forcing you to spam them to make them worth their tech investment. Leaving no MP room for Penals/T2 units.

No, I am saying conscripts don't cut it and they should be supplemented with proper HMGs or Penal troops. So that the faction does not hinge on T70. The reason why people don't supplement their conscripts is the excessive upgrage cost of Conscripts forcing you to spam them to make them worth their tech investment. Leaving no MP room for Penals/T2 units.

Any issues about conscripts not cutting it can be debated in the other thread about mainline infatry.

As for the T1 it rather dirty cheap since it tech that also provides access to satchel, PTRS, AT satchels with no additional cost.

Since we agree that T1 does not work as intended and that the changes for this patch little actually help it work better, do you that T1 is badly designed?

Given the current state of the game and from my awesome 5 minute thought full rework redesign plan which has no flaws whatsoever or any chance of backfiring this is what i came with. /s

---Support weapon company (T2) becomes T1. No further changes.

---Special Rifle comp (T1) becomes T2. Cut cost by half.
-New T2 requires T1 and it becomes an optional tier. T3 requires T1 and T4 requires T3.
-Penals becomes analog to PG once again (increase cost and buff). Maybe balance them around been a 5 man squad and not sure how historically correct could be to give them zooks cause that would solve the gap of Soviets having a real AT infantry unit to deal with heavy TDs in team games now that we plan on nerfing ram (and probable in the future IL2).
-Sniper can be given utility buffs.
-M3 can see further buffs now that it arrives at a later timing.

There might be a simpler way for this approach (although their might be simpler design) of a optional t1.

Special Rifle Com. (T1) fuel cost removed now does not count as tech.
Penals are rebalanced starting weaker.
All abilities and weapons upgrade for penal now have a fuel cost.

I took the liberty of copying this from another thread since I found it be relevant (I hope you do not mind and I can removed if you do not want me to copy it here)

Once again good changes.

A few problems:



M3 change is fantastic. However T1 requires further buffs. T1 is still extremely weak due to the following reasons:

A. The only T1 AT option forces you to give up the Anti infantry strength of your mainline.

B. The AT option itself is bad because it doesn't have enough damage output to avoid getting forced to retreat or at least getting bled before the vehicle is pushed back.

C. You only have very few snares (2 max) and they have very limited range. This is particularly problematic when using the Sniper.

D. ATGuns are the most cost efficient units in the game so there's very little reason not to get ZIS-Guns.

Sanders suggestion of giving the PTRS upgrade three PTRS while increasing the price accordingly would solve problem b. but enhance problem c. All your early AT on one squad would mean that if that squad gets pinned or forced to retreat you are completely exposed.

My preferred solution:

- Move PTRS to Cons, unlocked with T1 build
- Penal AT Satchels get unlocked with AT nade tech
- Possibly give Penals Molotovs
- decreased Penal buildtime

This directly solves Problems C. and A. because a mix of Cons and Penals combined with AT nade tech would lead to normal amounts of snares and Penals no longer have to waste their AI strength by upgrading PTRS. It would also partly solve Problem B. because cons bleed less when getting slaughtered by the vehicle they're fighting. Better Penal Buildtime would give the T1 opening quicker map presence. It would still be significantly weaker than a con opening in this regard.

Penals would now function as a supplement to cons (which from my understanding makes perfect sense thematically). Realistically you'd probably only get 1 (when combined with a sniper) or 2 most of the time because you'll want two PTRS cons for AT. 2 Cons, 3 Penals into T70 would be very manpower heavyy but not unthinkable. Encouraging Con/Penal Combos has the additional advantage that it allows for usage of merge and sandbags which both benefit penals but isn't enough of a reason to mix the two in the current version since Penals don't benefit at all from the at nade upgrade so you might as well just spam cons to make it worthwhile. For the same reason i would at least consider giving penals molotovs.
....

There might be a simpler way for this approach (although their might be simpler design) of a optional t1.

Special Rifle Com. (T1) fuel cost removed now does not count as tech.
Penals are rebalanced starting weaker.
All abilities and weapons upgrade for penal now have a fuel cost.

Did you think why this doesn't work? Weaker Penals early on just pushes people back to Conscripts even more. We already had this design with Penals prior to their rework and even when the tier was stronger (better sniper and situation for M3, people didn't bother with it) the tier was dead. PTRS is rather poor AT and barely holds grounds against light when used aggressively (check Luvnest response).

I've said in the past that the weapon/abilities for the Penals can be linked to the ones for Conscripts but that's before all the nerfs they have already received.

IIRC, at 160mp, it's not a competitive tech with further weaker units.


EDIT: the Gia suggestion MIGHT work but it creates further ramifications and needs adjusting of many more other things than just the core units involved.

Did you think why this doesn't work? Weaker Penals early on just pushes people back to Conscripts even more. We already had this design with Penals prior to their rework and even when the tier was stronger (better sniper and situation for M3, people didn't bother with it) the tier was dead. PTRS is rather poor AT and barely holds grounds against light when used aggressively (check Luvnest response).

I do not think that comparison with situation before the July patch is an indication of anything since the soviet faction had completely different design.

I've said in the past that the weapon/abilities for the Penals can be linked to the ones for Conscripts but that's before all the nerfs they have already received.

IIRC, at 160mp, it's not a competitive tech with further weaker units.

MP cost could easily be lower. This design allows earlier access to m3 and sniper compared to
your suggestions after T2.

EDIT: the Gia suggestion MIGHT work but it creates further ramifications and needs adjusting of many more other things than just the core units involved.

or one could simply add a pure AT infatry in T1.

Give release COH2 Penals with flamer and 6 G43 like Rifles. You can't powercreep if you "nerf" them back to what they originally were.

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One of the many reasons I quit 1v1 back in the day. Flamer Penals.

One of the many reasons I quit 1v1 back in the day. Flamer Penals.

One of the most broken things (at least stock) and it probably remained broken for the longest time (around 6 months if I remember correctly).

And many people warned about the change many times before it become live.

Personally, my preferred solution to the Penal Question would be to put them in tier 0 as an actual alternative to Conscripts, giving them perhaps a Panzerfusilier treatment, and then to place something else in Tier 1 to replace them (I would personally want (AT-focused?) Nondoc Guards, or some other AT solution.)

My suggestion would be to make them more "Assault" oriented Conscripts, befitting their theming as Strafniki.

Cursory suggestions include: Similar pricing, begins with Mosins but may upgrade to SVTs (or SVTs + Thompson-style profiled PPSH, or some other weapon variation), maintains To The Last Man (Or some similar ability), and ideally would even have Merge. I would likely not give them Sandbags or Oorah, however.

They would also benefit from the same side-tech upgrades as Conscripts, which would give them a slightly different set of tools. (I.E, HE grenade and reworked AT satchel (Shorter range than AT grenade, but would guarantee an engine critical, perhaps? Alternately just hand them the regular AT nade)) This would include Mobilise Reserves. This part of the suggestion would obviate issues with Conscript Tech Costs either forcing you to have Conblobs or no cons at all.

I think giving Soviets two equally usable mainline infantry options nondoctrinally might be an interesting factional gimmick, and is ostensibly what Penals are SUPPOSED to be already (By some accounts).

As I say, this really is mostly cursory musing, If it's an idea anyone thinks might actually be workable in any way I'll go ahead and put some more thought into it and develop some actual figures/work out kinks. I think there is definitely a lot of room for improvement/criticism to be levied.

I realise this suggestion makes both units rather similar, but I think there is room to make them both unique.