Penals, the Elephant in the room

Ergo: AT guards.

Yes the point is the need inferior weapons to Guards Mosin which is a powerful weapon especially on the move.

Yes the point is the need inferior weapons to Guards Mosin which is a powerful weapon especially on the move.

They could well be given Conscript mosins, along with some of the unit's models being Capeless Guards (Which I believe exist?) or even Conscripts to represent their less "Elite" status/rifle power.

They could well be given Conscript mosins, along with some of the unit's models being Capeless Guards (Which I believe exist?) or even Conscripts to represent their less "Elite" status/rifle power.

That would make more sense.

If at squads should loose ai power, why do pgrens keep their insane nade after getting shrecks?

If at squads should loose ai power, why do pgrens keep their insane nade after getting shrecks?

Probably for the same reason support Paras keep their cooked grenade.

If at squads should loose ai power, why do pgrens keep their insane nade after getting shrecks?

To keep their 30+ CQC DPS in check once upgraded obviously.

Probably for the same reason support Paras keep their cooked grenade.

So why do penals need to loose more ai power then? They dont even have a functional nade or snare.

So why do penals need to loose more ai power then? They dont even have a functional nade or snare.

For the same reason PTRS conscripts lose their molotov probably.

For the same reason PTRS conscripts lose their molotov probably.

Too many abilities, hotkeys and passives to fit into the grid?

Too many abilities, hotkeys and passives to fit into the grid?

Install the game, load the game, choose soviet, add tank hunter to your load out, start the game, produce a conscripts (it produced from HQ) upgrade with the PTRS and will find out that they have a free space in their grid.

For the same reason PTRS conscripts lose their molotov probably.

Wich is? Cuz leathality isent one.

Not that i think its wrong. Its just why does one faction with weaker/less cost effective hh at need to loose ai power and other factions with stronger/more cost effective hh at get to keep their ai nades who are much stronger then mollotov or satchal?

Oh yeah. Penalties are the Elephant in the room. I have been saying for a long time that it’s very easy to remove the Penalties. With all these PTRS changes, why do we need the Guard? They have already overlap the Guard for a long time, remove Penalties, transfer SVT-40 to Conscripts as an upgrade, Rename Conscripts to Rifleman. Move the Guard to T1. Make the penalties an ability like "Osttruppen" or "Rapid conscription" and rename them to Conscripts. Penalties were always superfluous and at some point in time overlap almost any Soviet infantry unit, and will continue to overlap.

Penalties are a rudiment of T1 - place holders for the Guard or Shock Troops that were previously built in T1 when choosing a commander.

Wich is? Cuz leathality isent one.

Not that i think its wrong. Its just why does one faction with weaker/less cost effective hh at need to loose ai power and other factions with stronger/more cost effective hh at get to keep their ai nades who are much stronger then mollotov or satchal?

You can ask the MOD, but I would suspect because the Panzershcrek VG blob syndrome.

VG with shcreck had average AI, original PTRs conscripts had average AI but once they manage to reach a critical mass these blob had enough AI/AT to deal with most things.

The design where spamming a single unit is a viable strategy is simply bad for the game.

Alright, agreed with vipper, PGs and shreck PFs should lose their AI nades upon upgrading to AT, there is no reason why they should keep them.

You can ask the MOD, but I would suspect because the Panzershcrek VG blob syndrome.

VG with shcreck had average AI, original PTRs conscripts had average AI but once they manage to reach a critical mass these blob had enough AI/AT to deal with most things.

The design where spamming a single unit is a viable strategy is simply bad for the game.

Spam being viable is bad i agree. Thats why i like whiteflashes idea that all mines should suppress inf, including the entire blob besides killing 2 models.

Though not cheap in the slightest you will need a lot more cons then you would need rifles pfussies pgrens to deal with the same amount of things.
It would also be great if the loose ai for at upgrade was apllied evenly across faction, buts its almost always soviets cant have x cuz reasons.

Alright, agreed with vipper, PGs and shreck PFs should lose their AI nades upon upgrading to AT, there is no reason why they should keep them.

You forgot to add "for consistency". At least add the "more in line with"...

You forgot to add "for consistency". At least add the "more in line with"...

Exactly.
AT paras could also lose theirs.

Can not do the same for Rifles, Rangers and REs, because they do not have AT upgrade, they just pick weapons, which is a completely different mechanic and can not be incorporated into this.

Oh, and shreck spios should lose their stun nade, it allows them to compete vs infantry despite upgrade too much. This way it will be consistent with PTRS cons.

Penal satchels are not AI nades, but anti bunker tool, so these have to stay too as its consistent with pio satchels this way.

Finally vipper talks reasonable and fair.

I'll preface by saying I like PTRS Penals because sending PTRS-armed Infantry at late-war Panzers is downright suicidal and thus you'd want an expendable troop to do this job. I'm split between whether I like Penals as a Panzerfusilier type unit or a Panzergrenadier type unit (which it hasn't been equivalent to for a very long time), but ultimately I think I favor the Panzerfusilier approach, at least in the following concept.

This idea is unrefined, it's been in my head for awhile but I was never 100% sure what I wanted from it, or rather I know what I want but some of these things are incompatible or overlapping so I try to rearrange them into something more coherent. Anyway, consider it spitballing.

Penals are now 5 men armed with Conscript Mosin or maybe 6 men with Weapon Crew Mosin, can be equipped with Flamethrower Package or PTRS package. May or may not have SVT Upgrade if Assault Troops start with PPSh (not stackable with other upgrades).

New unit Assault Troops, 6 men armed with PPSh slightly below Conscript PPSh. They have Oorah and a weak Panzerfusilier-style F1 Grenade. At T4/Reserve Upgrade their PPSh are replaced with Shock Troop version. If Penals do not have SVT, this unit may start with SVT and upgrade to PPSh. Unsure what Weapon Crate will do for them, early Shock Troop PPSh (if they have SVT) maybe 3-4 Panzerfusilier G43 style SVT's (if they do not have SVT)? I'm really liking the sound of those other G-43 style SVT's alongside their PPSh's now that I've come up with it.

In this concept, Conscripts are the utility unit envisioned by the developers, building cover, holding the line, and reinforcing other units. Penals are expendable attackers, they get assigned the jobs that you don't often come home from (attacking Panzers with PTRS, or holding a flamethrower (historically flamethrower troops had an exceptionally high mortality rate) ). Assault Troops grants them an offensive Submachine Gun squad which strongly fits the theme of the Red Army, as well as a real Grenade, and something for Conscripts to actually support (and if they come with SVT's they can serve as an optional mainline maybe?).

I'll preface by saying I like PTRS Penals because sending PTRS-armed Infantry at late-war Panzers is downright suicidal and thus you'd want an expendable troop to do this job. I'm split between whether I like Penals as a Panzerfusilier type unit or a Panzergrenadier type unit (which it hasn't been equivalent to for a very long time), but ultimately I think I favor the Panzerfusilier approach, at least in the following concept.

This idea is unrefined, it's been in my head for awhile but I was never 100% sure what I wanted from it, or rather I know what I want but some of these things are incompatible or overlapping so I try to rearrange them into something more coherent. Anyway, consider it spitballing.

Penals are now 5 men armed with Conscript Mosin or maybe 6 men with Weapon Crew Mosin, can be equipped with Flamethrower Package or PTRS package. May or may not have SVT Upgrade if Assault Troops start with PPSh (not stackable with other upgrades).

New unit Assault Troops, 6 men armed with PPSh slightly below Conscript PPSh. They have Oorah and a weak Panzerfusilier-style F1 Grenade. At T4/Reserve Upgrade their PPSh are replaced with Shock Troop version. If Penals do not have SVT, this unit may start with SVT and upgrade to PPSh. Unsure what Weapon Crate will do for them, early Shock Troop PPSh (if they have SVT) maybe 3-4 Panzerfusilier G43 style SVT's (if they do not have SVT)? I'm really liking the sound of those other G-43 style SVT's alongside their PPSh's now that I've come up with it.

In this concept, Conscripts are the utility unit envisioned by the developers, building cover, holding the line, and reinforcing other units. Penals are expendable attackers, they get assigned the jobs that you don't often come home from (attacking Panzers with PTRS, or holding a flamethrower (historically flamethrower troops had an exceptionally high mortality rate) ). Assault Troops grants them an offensive Submachine Gun squad which strongly fits the theme of the Red Army, as well as a real Grenade, and something for Conscripts to actually support (and if they come with SVT's they can serve as an optional mainline maybe?).

That would make much more sense and would be a far better design.

I'll preface by saying I like PTRS Penals because sending PTRS-armed Infantry at late-war Panzers is downright suicidal and thus you'd want an expendable troop to do this job. I'm split between whether I like Penals as a Panzerfusilier type unit or a Panzergrenadier type unit (which it hasn't been equivalent to for a very long time), but ultimately I think I favor the Panzerfusilier approach, at least in the following concept.

This idea is unrefined, it's been in my head for awhile but I was never 100% sure what I wanted from it, or rather I know what I want but some of these things are incompatible or overlapping so I try to rearrange them into something more coherent. Anyway, consider it spitballing.

Penals are now 5 men armed with Conscript Mosin or maybe 6 men with Weapon Crew Mosin, can be equipped with Flamethrower Package or PTRS package. May or may not have SVT Upgrade if Assault Troops start with PPSh (not stackable with other upgrades).

New unit Assault Troops, 6 men armed with PPSh slightly below Conscript PPSh. They have Oorah and a weak Panzerfusilier-style F1 Grenade. At T4/Reserve Upgrade their PPSh are replaced with Shock Troop version. If Penals do not have SVT, this unit may start with SVT and upgrade to PPSh. Unsure what Weapon Crate will do for them, early Shock Troop PPSh (if they have SVT) maybe 3-4 Panzerfusilier G43 style SVT's (if they do not have SVT)? I'm really liking the sound of those other G-43 style SVT's alongside their PPSh's now that I've come up with it.

In this concept, Conscripts are the utility unit envisioned by the developers, building cover, holding the line, and reinforcing other units. Penals are expendable attackers, they get assigned the jobs that you don't often come home from (attacking Panzers with PTRS, or holding a flamethrower (historically flamethrower troops had an exceptionally high mortality rate) ). Assault Troops grants them an offensive Submachine Gun squad which strongly fits the theme of the Red Army, as well as a real Grenade, and something for Conscripts to actually support (and if they come with SVT's they can serve as an optional mainline maybe?).

I really don't understand why the multiplayer SOV faction doesn't get Frontoviki conscripts like in the campaign. I like your design a lot.