[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

And that is why this design issue and not performance issue.

You keep saying this like it's something that a balance patch could fix. I couldn't care less about what type of issue it is. The tiers aren't gonna get a massive overhaul, new units aren't coming, and we're left with the current state of T1/Penals.
The current buffs to Penals are nice but still leave glaring issues that keep them from being to worth getting. As Hannibal said Penals are meant to be a viable choice without needing tier 2/doctrinal support and to that extent they still fail currently. Again, I couldn't care less about it being bad design it's just what has to be dealt with.
In that context Penals need more independent AT or something needs to be figured out to let them get AT. But whatever I've said my piece it's clear this conversation isn't going anywhere.

No, the Maxim definitely should not be buffed. Everything has to be done to prevent Maxim spam from becoming a thing again. It's already pretty commonly used in 3v3/4v4 and is a strong strategy despite the individually poor performance of the Maxim. There are way too many lane maps like Whiteball Express, Redball Express etc. that just make it WAY too easy to lock down the entire map with MGs.

If we are going to balance the game around the dumbest 4v4 maps in the game... what are your proposed nerfs to the JT, elephant and MG42?

So because its used with effect it is bad somehow? People please stop with the mds. All factors from the spam period have been nerfed hard. Now it will become usable for muni cost per use. It doesnt deserve the same mp price as the mg42.

So do we nerf the mg42/43 instead? They lock down an area even better for the same or less mp and less muni.

It takes 3 maxims to lock down one of the outside lanes on Red Ball. It takes 2 MG42's or MG34's to do the same, but those will work much better than the three maxims. Also, if you go with three maxims, expect that a walking stuka will wipe two of them in the first shot. It seems like they should be either a lot cheaper or should do their job somewhat competently.

If we are going to balance the game around the dumbest 4v4 maps in the game... what are your proposed nerfs to the JT, elephant and MG42?

It's not just 4v4 maps. There are too many lane maps in 2v2 and 3v3 as well. Just think Minsk, Rails, Kharkov etc.

I don't want to play against Maxim spam and there is a reason this obnoxious strat was nerfed hard in the past. It's not a very smart move to just forget about this and buff the Maxim back to its old levels.

It's not just 4v4 maps. There are too many lane maps in 2v2 and 3v3 as well. Just think Minsk, Rails, Kharkov etc.

I don't want to play against Maxim spam and there is a reason this obnoxious strat was nerfed hard in the past. It's not a very smart move to just forget about this and buff the Maxim back to its old levels.

In all seriousness, I don't think there's a way of "fixing" the Maxim. The Maxim will always be spammed in 2v2+ games (especially amongst lower levels), which I find interesting considering that more than 2 MG42s/Vickers are never seen. Maybe it's just to compensate for Conscripts' weak performance early game, but Grens suck too, yet Ostheer players never seem to go all out and make 3+ MG42s.

That is in the context of PTRS or general penal performance?

Because in context of PTRS, I'd expect them to be as efficient as shreck pios, not shreck PFs/zook RETs, 3 PTRS is an improvement, but I wouldn't relay on just 70 muni upgrade to counter any med armor without support from 1 other AT source as well.
And in context of penal spam BO, you can get by for the early game with the punishment of inferior map control, but you pretty much always need to supplement them with doctrinal inf or baby ATG if you want to forego T2.

In context of general Penal performance.
The Soviet tech order makes T1/Penal and Conscript/T2 builds virtually exclusive at least until after the beginning of the mid game. Back teching T2 before the first tank is only done when you're already knees deep into trouble. So until that point, Penals need to fill a lot of holes or at least make up for them because the current AT options of Soviets are not viable until the SU85. Soviet T1 builds in the current version are quite tricky to play, and as you say they usually need support by commander units. Two mainline infantry units in the same faction are not bad design by default, but I think Vipper is right that at least the current implementation of those two has just been causing issues for the last years.

I am quite interested what the current changes will bring. Maybe those slight buffs to AT Penals and the SU76 are enough to bridge the gap for T1 builds, maybe they are not... But in the end I the weird spot of Penals/T1 in general still remains unsolved.

In context of general Penal performance.
The Soviet tech order makes T1/Penal and Conscript/T2 builds virtually exclusive at least until after the beginning of the mid game. Back teching T2 before the first tank is only done when you're already knees deep into trouble. So until that point, Penals need to fill a lot of holes or at least make up for them because the current AT options of Soviets are not viable until the SU85. Soviet T1 builds in the current version are quite tricky to play, and as you say they usually need support by commander units. Two mainline infantry units in the same faction are not bad design by default, but I think Vipper is right that at least the current implementation of those two has just been causing issues for the last years.

I believe the problem stems from mid game lack of scaling.
You just can not have mainline inf that is reliable and relevant across whole game without weapon upgrade.
We've strolled this road for years with conscripts, now we're going for a 2nd lap with penals and their mid and late game viability.

Lack of upgrade to keep infantry scaling through early mid game and extreme over reliance on T-70 to jump back into the game once everyone else starts rolling out infantry weapon upgrades is a direct reason why T1 feels bad on the long run as even if SU-76 might be a good option right now, as long as there is no infantry scaling to fend of the pressure, it will always be T-70 and in turn, T1 lack of AT reliability and AI scaling.

I am quite interested what the current changes will bring. Maybe those slight buffs to AT Penals and the SU76 are enough to bridge the gap for T1 builds, maybe they are not... But in the end I the weird spot of Penals/T1 in general still remains unsolved.

I honestly do feel like it'll take a while longer, but a solution akin to mobilise reserves will be employed for them. PTRS buff does a lot to their AT part, but -2 reinforce cost and vet swap isn't going to cut it at all in AI department, they will keep on bleeding to vehicles and not doing enough to infantry due to abundance of cover cutting their DPS drastically.

Swap the SVT for AVTs and make penals into fallschirmjager clones

You joke, but I honestly think the idea of giving Penals ATVs is a good one. Obviously they shouldnt be on the power level of Fallschirmjagers, but it would be a weapon upgrade that fits their "theme".

I believe the problem stems from mid game lack of scaling.
You just can not have mainline inf that is reliable and relevant across whole game without weapon upgrade.
We've strolled this road for years with conscripts, now we're going for a 2nd lap with penals and their mid and late game viability.

Lack of upgrade to keep infantry scaling through early mid game and extreme over reliance on T-70 to jump back into the game once everyone else starts rolling out infantry weapon upgrades is a direct reason why T1 feels bad on the long run as even if SU-76 might be a good option right now, as long as there is no infantry scaling to fend of the pressure, it will always be T-70 and in turn, T1 lack of AT reliability and AI scaling.


I honestly do feel like it'll take a while longer, but a solution akin to mobilise reserves will be employed for them. PTRS buff does a lot to their AT part, but -2 reinforce cost and vet swap isn't going to cut it at all in AI department, they will keep on bleeding to vehicles and not doing enough to infantry due to abundance of cover cutting their DPS drastically.

That is simply an unfounded theory.

Vet 3 Penal will beat vet 3 LMG grenadiers in cover to fights at many ranges and Vet 5 Vg both of which have weapon upgrades.

There is no real relevance between having a weapon upgrade or not.

Performance is related to stats and weapons available to squad regardless of how one come to have these weapons available to them.(concentrate DPS over spread DPS)

It's not just 4v4 maps. There are too many lane maps in 2v2 and 3v3 as well. Just think Minsk, Rails, Kharkov etc.

I don't want to play against Maxim spam and there is a reason this obnoxious strat was nerfed hard in the past. It's not a very smart move to just forget about this and buff the Maxim back to its old levels.

The maxim today isn't as good and suitable for spamming as the old maxim. There isn't any reason why it should be overpriced. The old maxim spam worked because you could just A-move the maxims. You can't do that now, so the strat is not going to suddenly be viable when maxims have a fair price.

That's not what I said, but feel free to be a troll

Then simply respond to the questions:
In you opinion are Penals a cost efficient unit?
Are they up for cost?

Then simply respond to the questions:
In you opinion are Penals a cost efficient unit?
Are they up for cost?

I explained my take very clearly for you, I don't really care if you can't comprehend it

That is simply an unfounded theory.

Vet 3 Penal will beat vet 3 LMG grenadiers and Vet 5 Vg both of which have weapon upgrades.

I have had plentry of situations where penals get slaughtered vs mg 42 vet 3 grens. Against volks fights have been more even.

I have had plentry of situations where penals get slaughtered vs mg 42 vet 3 grens. Against volks fights have been more even.

I suggest you test in vet 3 Penal vs vet 3 Lmg grenadier in cover to covet and in different ranges in cheat mode. I would will be every interested to see what result you come up with.

It's not just 4v4 maps. There are too many lane maps in 2v2 and 3v3 as well. Just think Minsk, Rails, Kharkov etc.

I don't want to play against Maxim spam and there is a reason this obnoxious strat was nerfed hard in the past. It's not a very smart move to just forget about this and buff the Maxim back to its old levels.

why do people have such a hate boner for the maxim when the MG42 can do everything the maxim can but better?

it literally makes NO SENSE

In all seriousness, I don't think there's a way of "fixing" the Maxim.

there is...

option 1: formation changes/gun animation change + 4 man + 60 degree arc + mg34 suppression + suppressive fire to vet 0


option 2: mg34 suppression + 5 man + suppressive fire at vet 0 + formation/gun animation


option 3: mg34 suppression + increased popcap to prevent spam


there we have a balanced machinegun...

The Maxim will always be spammed in 2v2+ games (especially amongst lower levels), which I find interesting considering that more than 2 MG42s/Vickers are never seen.

i actually dont see maxim spams alot... mg42s definitely more common than maxims as far as ive seen...

Maybe it's just to compensate for Conscripts' weak performance early game, but Grens suck too, yet Ostheer players never seem to go all out and make 3+ MG42s.

conscripts suck for alot longer than grens since LMG42 and VSL come alot sooner than 7 man or vet 3 in 2v2+... sure theres cons SVT but its not as good in teamgames as the other commanders...

I suggest you test in vet 3 Penal vs vet 3 Lmg grenadier in cover to covet and in different ranges in cheat mode. I would will be every interested to see what result you come up with.

Yea right. Vaccuum test that holds no relation to proper gameplay scenario. You realise not every engagement happen with both sides in green cover right? You point it out like it does.

Yea right. Vaccuum test that holds no relation to proper gameplay scenario. You realise not every engagement happen with both sides in green cover right? You point it out like it does.

Ok suite yourself and do not test.

It's not just 4v4 maps. There are too many lane maps in 2v2 and 3v3 as well. Just think Minsk, Rails, Kharkov etc.

I don't want to play against Maxim spam and there is a reason this obnoxious strat was nerfed hard in the past. It's not a very smart move to just forget about this and buff the Maxim back to its old levels.

Its not as mobile as it was, its doesnt suppress nearly as fast as it did, it doesnt pack up as fast as in its golden days. And its more expensive then it was back then.

Its not smart to keep a unit in a near or unusable state because some op state happend way back when.

I explained my take very clearly for you, I don't really care if you can't comprehend it

So you do not want to say your opinion on weather Peanl are a cost efficient unit or not. Fine by me.