[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:30 PMVipper

Oddly enough Penal are quite good at long range fight once vetted. Their vet 1 ability and accuracy buffs make the quite good at prolonged cover to cover fights.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 06:01 AMVipper

Su-76 will become easier to use, T2 has become easier to tech.

Soviet are not USF and Penal are not to Riflemen.

As I pointed out previously the problem lies with the idea that Soviet T1 build so be carried on the shoulder of Penals. Trying to turn soviet into USF once the built T1 simple will not work, it will either lead to Penal blobs or it will lead to T1 oblivion.

It is high time to accept that and simply change the design.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:49 PMKatitof

~20 DPS spread across whole squad.
Grens alone have 13,5 of focus fire DPS and additional 10 from regular Kars.

Penal vet1 is not useless, but its also not outcome changing, instead of losing 16,6% DPS per model loss, they lose ~13%. It helps, but its not going to overpower anything.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:49 PMKatitof

Penals can fight at long range, but saying they are good at long range at vet compared to any other squad capable of long range fighting, including bar rifles is covering the truth at the very least.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:58 PMFunPolice

Even then the issue lies in that the SU76 has to directly compete with the T70 as the midgame for Soviets which it just doesn't. And it isn't because the Su76 is bad it's just that the Soviets need something like the T70 to push around LVs and Infantry at the same time (although costing 75 fuel isn't helping T1 when it tries to get T4).

Plus it still isn't easy to backtech for AT guns since nothing has been done to help with the stupidly expensive T4. The options Penals have for AT beyond PTRS just still doesn't exist and until something is done to make them getting AT not as expensive/punishing you aren't gonna see Penals be viable.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 15:14 PMVipper

Once more that is T1 design problem and Penal simply can not be to solution to everything.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 15:28 PMKatitof

Well, M3 most certainly isn't going to be one and neither is sniper.
New units aren't being made, doctrinal units aren't going into stock, T2 isn't going to be reshuffled with T1 and penals are not becoming cons with different name.

That means we have to work with current penals.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 15:45 PMFunPolice

Exactly. Working in the confines of what T1 is gonna give Penals either need to become more efficient on their own or something needs to be done with giving them access to AT. Whether that is like reducing the cost of T2 if you build T1, shuffling some costs around (move some T4 cost to T2 so penal builds get a better timing), or whatever else.
The point that Vipper keeps missing is that massive overhauls aren't gonna happen and the smaller changes are all we have to work with. Do Penal in general have issues with their design? Sure but it's long past the point where that could be fixed. So we just have to work with the current state of Penals and in this state they need one of the two things I listed above if you want to make them viable picks.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:18 PMVipper

Penal will never be fixed because having two mainline infatry in the same faction and expecting them to work independently is simply bad design.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:22 PMKatitof

Literally no one expects them to work independently and spamming either alone is a sure way to lose the game - they were independent exclusively when they were op and, that clearly was not intended given how they no longer are.
It was always about paying for their own cost and scaling into late game for both and both sucked hard until they started getting mandatory changes. To not see that is to be in denial about state of these units.

Jump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 15:42 PMFunPolice

As I already stated that conscript squad with AT is stupidly expensive since you 390 manpower and 15 fuel (which is even worse if your also planning on paying for 75 fuel for the SU76). And if you go for more than 1 conscript then is there even really a point to go Penals?
If penals aren't allowed to be flexible and have a snare than give them more actual AT and the tools to better deal with vehicles.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:18 PMVipper

Penal will never be fixed because having two mainline infatry in the same faction and expecting them to work independently is simply bad design.

That is why PF are designed to co exist with VG and not replace them.

Jump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 21:32 PMKT610

Any thoughts on giving Penals access to Dp-28s? I would be more willing to take Penals over cons if they got some anti-infantry upgrades as an alternative to PTRS.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:22 PMKatitof

Literally no one expects them to work independently and spamming either alone is a sure way to lose the game - they were independent exclusively when they were op and, that clearly was not intended given how they no longer are.
It was always about paying for their own cost and scaling into late game for both and both sucked hard until they started getting mandatory changes. To not see that is to be in denial about state of these units.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:47 PMHannibal

Penals are expected to work on their own, and at the very least independently from T2. You can throw a Con into a Penal build but it does not fix the actual issue.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 13:11 PMLetzte Bataillon

The Maxim should cost 240 MP, for a start. Its current 260 is unwarranted.

Unless there's something I'm overlooking.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:39 PMFunPolice

Well then Penals fail at that job also because of what they offer compared to T2. Going just pure cons gives you snares, the possibility of an MG and AT gun, and late game scaling with 7 man.

T1 gives clown car which is only good for the early game, a sniper which is fine, and Penals which are strong early game but then fall off a cliff late game.

Making it easier to backtech to T2 after going penals would be a way to make it easier to incorporate Penals into standard openings. But no matter what Penals still just need more to be viable. Right now they just don't do enough compared to what you give up for them.

Jump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 18:07 PMblvckdream

No, the Maxim definitely should not be buffed. Everything has to be done to prevent Maxim spam from becoming a thing again. It's already pretty commonly used in 3v3/4v4 and is a strong strategy despite the individually poor performance of the Maxim. There are way too many lane maps like Whiteball Express, Redball Express etc. that just make it WAY too easy to lock down the entire map with MGs.