[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

It is nice to see that you make a distinction in large and small modes.

When it comes to 4v4 I think that doctrinal changes like removing stuka/elefant combo will fix a number of issues.

I still can't find a proper reason why they nerf con and t34 because of that commander.

Can you doing test with me? if you have free time. thanks

test with AI are a bit hard to notice.

What a point of MR give +20% Exp for penal/cons in late game .instead of reduce reinforce cost?
At late game. Penal usually reached vet 3 at same time of tier 4 arrived.

I think this passive should be belong to OST. because they must relied on veterancy unit.
while reduce reinforce cost should be belong to soviet. Spamming or mass a cheap unit is a Soviet CORE meta(I mean they have 6 men/ human waves).as Cons concept is" buy battlefield success with their lives" or penal "Died trying"

It is nice to see that you make a distinction in large and small modes.

When it comes to 4v4 I think that doctrinal changes like removing stuka/elefant combo will fix a number of issues.

I used to be a 4v4 player wich i still play sometimes. Going 1v1 was an eye opener.

I do wonder what you and other people see as the other viable options for soviets are in the 4v4 late game vs ele or jagd doctrines? now that ram plus offmap will go the way of the dodo.

What a point of MR give +20% Exp for penal/cons in late game .instead of reduce reinforce cost?
At late game. Penal usually reached vet 3 at same time of tier 4 arrived.

I think this passive should be belong to OST. because they must relied on veterancy unit.
while reduce reinforce cost should be belong to soviet. Spamming or mass a cheap unit is a Soviet CORE meta(I mean they have 6 men/ human waves).as Cons concept is" buy battlefield success with their lives" or penal "Died trying"

The point of the vet is so that if a squad gets wiped you don't have to struggle through not having a weapon upgrade.

I think at this moment it's a good time to ask, what's the general consensus on the mod team regarding Soviets atm on 1v1 and teamgames and what their goal is with the changes.

Are they OP? Then nerf it. Are they UP? Buff them. Do they have a really strong late game but weak early? Then adjust the power budget from one side to the other. Are you considering that everything will be fine the moment people stop using Osstruppen, 5 man Grens and AssGrens?

Let's recapitulate the accumulative changes atm.

Let's start with late game.

Katyusha
Creeping barrage fix
Vet rof barrage nerf (everyone get's nerfed)

Su85
Vet nerf

ISU152
HE range nerf
Rear armor nerf
Penetrating shot nerf

Overall nerfs to couple of principal late game units. Which in general are fine, though i think the Piercing round is a little expensive for what is gonna be doing now (60 IIRC). Mediocre for cost against full HP support weapons and the delay it has makes it harder to use as an anti vehicle shot.

T3476:
Ram nerf

The more i look at the directions they are going, the less i like the changes overall. The HP change is gonna be hard to gauge if you are not at full HP and get hit by 2x 160dmg sources. On the other hand will people attack ground their own T34 just so they can ram?
I would rollback most changes and keep it simple. The moment you have the greenlight to nerf Ele/JT units, commander or have the ability to give Soviets some non doctrinal way to threaten those units (specially for all those corridor maps) in the same way both other 2 allied factions have (PIAT/Zook, mobile smoke tank, turreted TD, AP shell/Tulips) go for it and remove ram from the soviet roster.

Right now i can only suggest to:

-Reduce pen from 200 to 150 (original 160).
This is enough to pen all rear heavies
-Keep the removal of the heavy crits.
-Keep the current engine damage and main gun crit on T34. Adjust engine exhaustion/T34 own stun duration if you think they can easily escape.
-Rollback and keep it at vet 0.

If you REALLY want to nerf it so much:

-Either reduce the stun duration on deflection.
or
-Remove the stun component and make it guaranteed engine damage.

Overall, i think the best solution is just nerfing IL2 rocket strafe (reduce pen + add 50% deflection dmg) so it's not as effective vs heavies for the ease of use and cost) and just remove the IL2 bombing strike from ISU152 commanders.

Mobilize reserves:
No longer needs AT nade + Molo
No longer free at T4
+20% XP to all Cons + Penals
-2mp reinforce for Penals

Late game nerf (you end up paying for something you were getting for free) and the expense of getting it faster at T3 timing if you pay for it. Which i'm not sure it's a great deal. Cause at that point in the game you are not winning the map control nor the fights. The 7man conscript is great when stalling and holding ground behind sandbags.

If you go for a Penal build, i'm not sure if the 20% XP gain justifies the upgrade. Remember that Grens get this for free at T4 and this didn't solve all the complains with Grenadiers in the late game. You need to lose 50 Penal models to get even mp wise.

M5
AA heavy nerf
Passenger heal

Su76:
Cone of fire
Replace tracking with camo
Vet req nerf
Vet 2 acceleration
Rotation rate increase
Removed human crushing

T70
Rof nerf
AoE capped
Recon forces reload

So the glue that ties Soviets midgame get's nerf (T70) while you are not making the whole tier cheaper/faster to get in comparison to all other 4 factions? The Su76 is not going to be a thing if it can't counter light vehicles at a proper timing against Flak HT, FHT or P2. In the same way Stuart/AEC/Puma does. Alternative you could nerf the timing of all light vehicles but i don't think that's gonna be easy to do at all.

The M5 heal is situationally good but it's not like OH HT with mobile gren/PG inside is meta at all.
Will need more testing, but by the looks from Tightrope vid comparison, the AA is a little bad. I think one has to take into consideration that all other factions have a compound way to increase AA chances with plenty of gunner upgrades on tanks or other soft alternatives. At least it should be as good or slightly better than the OKW Flak HT.

Medics:
-50mp cost down to 200mp
AoE heal

Big buff. Will definitely improve early game but unfortunately it kind get's overshadow that you now have to buy Mobilize for a net 50mp deficit compared to before.
Outside of adjusting the AoE heal speed and besides whatever else happens with the other changes, i think the -50mp cost in the upgrade is key in order to start tackling down the transition between early/mid game from the faction.

Support weapon:
Crew xp nerf

Mortar:
Smoke barrage decoupled from HE

Maxim:
Vet0 suppression ability
Further changes to reduce deathloop
They all received improved formation, but only helps when in the open.
Manual reload

Zis:
Reload barrage nerf

Overall no net change. Nothing meta shaking. Abilities/vet don't generally fix mediocre base performance.

T1
Build time

M3A1:
HP n armor nerf
Shared vet n vet 2 decap

Penals
Reinforce time buff
Change acc for RA at vet
-2mp reinforce after mobilize
PTRS attack ground and aiming time
+1 PTRS
Improved acc but overall DPS while static same.
Cost increase upgrade

Sniper:
Cost decrease
Sight decrease

I think it's still hard to justify to spend at the beginning of the game 160mp to tech. I'm not feeling it that Penals will hard carry it as the other 2 units are getting slightly nerf overall (snipers in general, the M3A1 still has a too limited timeframe of utility for a unit you are spending fuel, on top of PF been a thing).
A PTRS Penal will indeed scale into medium tank phase as opposed to been useless but i don't think it will be what they need in the late game. They have enough other tools to deal with PIVs and below.
Should mobilize offer the possibility of upgrading n refitting those PTRS for 2 zooks?

CE:
Vet acc changed for RA

Good change. Same as others.

Conscript
Vet 3 acc removed

Curious as to why the removal. If SVT are still too good, adjust those. Same with what you are doing with mobilize. Then what about PPSH/PTRS Cons?

I think at this point you could put both AT nades + Molotov behind the same unlock at the cost of the current AT nade and there would be 0 problem as no one wants to spend their early munition in mollies anyway.

Honestly making T1 and T2 100 mp instead of 160 would help a lot and allow people to go Tier 2 with Penal builds for the Zis gun so you don't feel like you have to go M-42 constantly.

Overall, i think the best solution is just nerfing IL2 rocket strafe (reduce pen + add 50% deflection dmg) so it's not as effective vs heavies for the ease of use and cost) and just remove the IL2 bombing strike from ISU152 commanders.

+1... much smarter than the halfarsed ram changes the dev team is trying...

The point of the vet is so that if a squad gets wiped you don't have to struggle through not having a weapon upgrade.

I know this but it not worth . no one want to get manpower bleed from losing their entries squad in late game battle.

Does MR effect to team weapon too? or just penal and cons?

Penetrating shot nerf

Penetrating shot got 1.000 penetration which is a huge buff to its AT role and price reduction from 70 to 60 and now fire the projectile faster.

As for AOE its Kill radius might have gone down but its FAR AOE was increased 1.5 and the far damage was tripled.

I doubt this qualifies a straight nerf.

M3A1:
HP n armor nerf

HP went up not down. Overall it about 10% EHP reduction and bringing armor value close to other vehicles.

Late game nerf (you end up paying for something you were getting for free) and the expense of getting it faster at T3 timing if you pay for it.
...
Remember that Grens get this for free at T4 and this didn't solve all the complains with Grenadiers in the late game.

MR can become available from around minute 6 and the XP gain kick in for both units immediately and the reinforcement reduction for Penal.

As an investment it can return value for much longer time than "all out war".

Imo you are underestimating the time factor.

Finally one has to keep in mind that Ostheer received minor buff and mostly nerfs especially in their crutch commanders and OKW where not doing that great to being with.

I still can't find a proper reason why they nerf con and t34 because of that commander.

Can you doing test with me? if you have free time. thanks

test with AI are a bit hard to notice.

Yes I ca help test things but use the shot box or PM and not this thread.

I used to be a 4v4 player wich i still play sometimes. Going 1v1 was an eye opener.

Yes different mod play completely differently.

Think osttruppen is great example OP in 1vs1 up in 4vs4

Is it possible to put a 3 min initial cooldown on T-34 ram ability instead of tying it to health or vet.

The goal is for fresh T-34s not to be able to ram. Having a 3 minute initial cooldown and 3 minute subsequent cooldowns would be ideal to prevent this. The player can choose whether or not to use said T-34 within the 3 initial minutes.

If they choose to, then they are using the unit as intended.

If they choose to wait then they are down some MP/fuel.

IL-2/Rocket wombo combo isn't as strong if fresh T-34s can't ram. It isn't as devastating a nerf if they aren't able to ram from the get-go and its not tied to vet or hp %.

On the other hand will people attack ground their own T34 just so they can ram?

Attack ground on your own units does next to no damage. It can take over 5 minutes to damage your own tank to 50% with another tank. ATGs take even longer.

Is it possible to put a 3 min initial cooldown on T-34 ram ability instead of tying it to health or vet.

The goal is for fresh T-34s not to be able to ram. Having a 3 minute initial cooldown and 3 minute subsequent cooldowns would be ideal to prevent this. The player can choose whether or not to use said T-34 within the 3 initial minutes.

If they choose to, then they are using the unit as intended.

If they choose to wait then they are down some MP/fuel.

IL-2/Rocket wombo combo isn't as strong if fresh T-34s can't ram. It isn't as devastating a nerf if they aren't able to ram from the get-go and its not tied to vet or hp %.

initial cooldown is a good Idea.

But I suggest to remove ramming and replace it with "War engine(same as M10 wolverine)" b for fitting its flanking roles .

initial cooldown is a good Idea.

But I suggest to remove ramming and replace it with "War engine(same as M10 wolverine)" b for fitting its flanking roles .

Yes, this is exactly what the T-34 needs. Perhaps acceleration should replace the first veterancy ability, and the ram should be replaced with another one (with price adjustments, if necessary), or simply removed.

Is it possible to put a 3 min initial cooldown on T-34 ram ability instead of tying it to health or vet.

The goal is for fresh T-34s not to be able to ram. Having a 3 minute initial cooldown and 3 minute subsequent cooldowns would be ideal to prevent this. The player can choose whether or not to use said T-34 within the 3 initial minutes.

this indeed sounds like a much more elegant solution than the current 50% hp threshold to tame the il-2/ram combo.

Is it possible to put a 3 min initial cooldown on T-34 ram ability instead of tying it to health or vet.

The goal is for fresh T-34s not to be able to ram. Having a 3 minute initial cooldown and 3 minute subsequent cooldowns would be ideal to prevent this. The player can choose whether or not to use said T-34 within the 3 initial minutes.

Really good proposal. If it is technically possible to have the ability start with a cooldown, of course.

Penetrating shot got 1.000 penetration which is a huge buff to its AT role and price reduction from 70 to 60 and now fire the projectile faster.

As for AOE its Kill radius might have gone down but its FAR AOE was increased 1.5 and the far damage was tripled.

I doubt this qualifies a straight nerf.

Right now it's useful to downright delete whatever you are aiming it at. Be an infantry capping or support weapon. It's basically a 70 range stronger bundle grenade. You could care less about far AOE chip dmg if whatever you were aiming before was gonna be dead.

I mentioned that due to the delay, it's harder to hit anything that is moving slightly. And it's not like it had bad penetration before. 300/350/400. The only thing it will deflect at max range are KT, JT and ELE. Vet2 Brummbar if it's perfectly at max range cause anything in between will still pen.

HP went up not down. Overall it about 10% EHP reduction and bringing armor value close to other vehicles.

Yep that was my bad notes when summarizing the changes. It was meant to reflect the EHP against small arm. Which even if you are fighting a 222, you are still getting hit by the vehicles MGs.
Basically a situational improvement, when overall you are getting dmg by small arm at the beginning of the game. Which means more time repairing.

MR can become available from around minute 6 and the XP gain kick in for both units immediately and the reinforcement reduction for Penal.

As an investment it can return value for much longer time than "all out war".

Imo you are underestimating the time factor.

Finally one has to keep in mind that Ostheer received minor buff and mostly nerfs especially in their crutch commanders and OKW where not doing that great to being with.

I'm not understimating it, but factoring all the other changes that are been applied at the same time and this change is supposed to be the redeeming factor for the other late game nerfs and the T70 nerf.

If you want to get this upgrade in live, the only REALISTIC thing you are skipping is molotovs at 80/10 IIRC.

I'm still not sold in buying it for Penals as well as opposed to rushing a light vehicle out. I feel in a world where 5%/10% xp gain bulletins exist for things like Rifles/PGs and other units, i don't feel it's that game changing at that point in the game

....
I'm still not sold in buying it for Penals as well as opposed to rushing a light vehicle out. I feel in a world where 5%/10% xp gain bulletins exist for things like Rifles/PGs and other units, i don't feel it's that game changing at that point in the game

I would have to guess since it need a allot of testing that rushing MR would be actually better than having a T-70 1.5 minutes earlier.

The XP gain and reduced bleed will pay for it.

And as I have pointed out I think that Ostheer lost allot more than Soviets in the patch, rightfully.

What remains to be seen how good are ostheer without their crutches.

And as I have pointed out I think that Ostheer lost allot more than Soviets in the patch, rightfully.

What remains to be seen how good are ostheer without their crutches.

Indeed, but it's not like they are not also buffing other OH thing as well. The formations changes are great, in both MG and Grens. And the general consensus atm is that the nerfs are not strong enough to disuade people from using Osttruppen, 5 man Grens or AssGrens. Alternative ELE commander in teamgames.

Indeed, but it's not like they are not also buffing other OH thing as well. The formations changes are great, in both MG and Grens. And the general consensus atm is that the nerfs are not strong enough to disuade people from using Osttruppen, 5 man Grens or AssGrens. Alternative ELE commander in teamgames.

Generally speaking I would say Ostheer buff good and minor.

About Ostt it really depend on which solution they go for although the problem is in way related to PG which is turn is related to allied infatry. (as I have pointed out many time imo such strong infatry should not be available this early in game at least in their full potential)

I would have to guess the if problem with Ostt/5 men Gren/AssG/Ele persist they can be solved in the "commander" patch.

(For the 5 men grenadier think it also related with design timing of the 250 which is simply OP in that doctrine)

What I would like to point out is that in WC2019 Soviet where not weak and once ostheer "crutch" commander are fixed they might prove to be ok.