[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

I don't know how exactly to do this but I think a good buff to Penals would be to do 2 things.

1. Make the AT satchel deal less damage but have more range.

That's called AT nade and they already are available for stock squad + AT satchel is not offensive weapon, its a deterrent to pushing them.

2. Lock the normal satchel and AT satchel behind the Grenade Package in the HQ.

Why?
You are adding an extra cost here, what is the point of that? Regular satchel can not be used against infantry anyway if your opponent isn't browsing xvids while playing anyway.

The increased range doesn't need to be much but it being a little easier to get a snare off would be nice to see. Plus the biggest change is that penals can have a snare without needing to get PTRS rifles which means there is a better threat of snares being something the enemy has to watch out for. Currently with only 1 penal getting PTRS (you can only afford one realistically) the amount of snare Penal starts have is laughable. If any penal could snare it would make the job of the PTRS a lot easier overall.

Penals are not supposed to have snare without PTRS.
The whole point of AT satchel is to keep vehicles away from them as they lack alpha damage to scare away med armor from engaging up close.
Also, if you need this much snares, don't spam penals, build cons.

Another idea is to do a bigger set of changes to the SU76. Currently there is just little reason to get one compared to the T70 and after that point they just don't preform well in any way.

What if you made the SU76 like 60 fuel and toned it down to mainly make it effective against LVs and even handle (with vet ofc) mediums? It could essentially become the mid game of a penal start and be the core AT of that build that helps against infantry thanks to it's barrage ability.
So maybe the change could be something along the lines of:
Fuel cost reduced to 60 fuel (from 75)
Penetration values decreased (practically a Pz4 would bounce a good amount of shots from an unvetted SU76)
Vet changes (things like Vet 2 granting more Pen)
Any changes to Barrage to balance out the cheaper cost (I would assume this takes a smaller nerf to help prevent spam being to strong)

Then you'd kill the unit completely as it would pretty much revert it to sate from 4 years ago, because there is exclusively ONE unit it would be able to engage - puma.

I have no clue if the above changes would be enough nor would I know the exact values they should be made to but it could be another way to improve penals by giving them serious AT to shut down LVs in a more serious way and also has the added benefit of making the SU76 more appealing to get in a build.

Ideas about giving them lend lease AT are not new ones, but I don't think they'll ever get it.

SU-76 will never be appealing over T-70, because SU-76 does not plug the hole T-70 does - complete lack of AI in early mid game.

If you insist on bringing proof that it is considered as "good" then you should also bring "proof" that actually validates what is "good" for that particular scenario. That's ground truth reasoning. But since we can't bring ground truth to what is "good", all we can bring is just discussions to what one thinks. All that stands here now is that you think it's good because it takes 40 seconds from green cover, where I think it's bad because it takes 40 seconds. Right now, there are other AT squads doing a much better job and quicker than 40 seconds. Penals are being bothered because there are loud noises in the forum repeating penals are OP.

Can you describe a scenario in which Zooks and Shrecks do much better than PTRS?

All that stands here now is that you think it's good because it takes 40 seconds from green cover, where I think it's bad because it takes 40 seconds. Right now, there are other AT squads doing a much better job and quicker than 40 seconds

I already posted that that is not the case, based on a few simple tests. I don't post what I think, I post test results (I obviously realise that only one test is not entirely representative). See below. Now again, feel free to prove this wrong by doing more tests and posting the results if they paint a different picture, rather than just posting your subjective opinion.

Yeah, and they all do better and most importantly quicker. Not sure why you insist on wanting me to "proof" you wrong when you think it's totally OK for a normal game situation for a P4 to stand still and shoot at AT squads in green cover for 40 seconds counting..

I'm not sure what other situations you'd really want to use them or any AT infantry in. They're also not suddenly going to do so much worse than the others on open ground or while chasing. PTRS rifles have more range than other handheld AT weapons, they can't miss, they fire just as fast as zookas and Pschrecks now, and Penals have more effective hitpoints. And now they have the DPM to match the others too. And best of all, tanks can't push them around without eating a satchel.

Exactly, and these vacuum tests don't use the units' strengths at its best either, as you clearly point out. Nobody in a normal game would have a situation like that of 40 seconds of exchanging shots (of course exceptions like testing, trolling, or unsure how to use the unit, or new player, and so on). Units are usually attempted to be used at their best in a match-up. These vacuum tests are just hints to what the balance is like in vacuum situations, not proper games, and definitely not "proof" that you insist on clinging on. It helps to get an idea, but they're definitely not "proof" of balance.

2 zook RE vs p4

pgrens fared even better...

Units are usually attempted to be used at their best in a match-up.

...which is firing at tanks from heavy cover or garrisons for AT infantry.

2 zook RE vs p4

pgrens fared even better...

How'd Penals do from the same position? Differing elevation has a severe impact on tank combat.

...which is firing at tanks from heavy cover or garrisons for AT infantry.

... for +40 seconds? With no other play, units, movements, abilities or else the game offers? I don't think so. You might play like that, but I do not. I prefer exciting and fun plays with impressive and fun engagements.

How'd Penals do from the same position? Differing elevation has a severe impact on tank combat.

they win if they main gun crit the P4... they lose if they dont...

...which is firing at tanks from heavy cover or garrisons for AT infantry.

The more realistic scenario is chasing down vehicles, specially ones with little to non AI.

Other AT infantry doesn't fare much or any better in a similar situation.
But feel free to do more tests and prove me wrong.

The only scenario which i expect Penals PTRS might be good is combining it with FMR for the speedboost and the threat of an AT satchel.

As for how it fares in any real game, AT infantry excels at chasing and microing them between reloads. They are not as good at holding ground. This is totally opposite with PTRS. Unless we talk about 1v1 and/or a margin of 5/10 mins during the first medium tank arriving, those extended duration engagements don't exist in the game without any other unit interference.

A role which feels to be already covered by Zis/Su85 performance.

1 PTRS penal should never be enough to deal with med armor, however now with 3rd PTRS they might be an excellent support for protecting ATGs or casemates while previously threat they posed was irreelvant as long as you kept your range from them.

No one is going to spam them nor use them as if they were still AI squad, contrary to some insane theorycrafts, they supplement T3 better and transition into initial T4 more efficiently with bit lower bleed and bit more firepower.

They are well balanced at the moment.

That's called AT nade and they already are available for stock squad + AT satchel is not offensive weapon, its a deterrent to pushing them.


Why?
You are adding an extra cost here, what is the point of that? Regular satchel can not be used against infantry anyway if your opponent isn't browsing xvids while playing anyway.


Penals are not supposed to have snare without PTRS.
The whole point of AT satchel is to keep vehicles away from them as they lack alpha damage to scare away med armor from engaging up close.
Also, if you need this much snares, don't spam penals, build cons.

At least from what I gather from the current changes is that there is a push to make penal openings more viable. With penals still only having a single squad that could snare (which is extremely short range) and the fact that penal openings pretty much only have PTRS rifles to contest armor leaves a lot to be desired for them. Giving them better access to snares would be something to help that.

The main issue with just building conscripts is that if your getting more than like 1 then the question becomes why even go penals in the first place? And even if you do get conscripts you still would have to tech into AT nades for snares with them so I don't see much of an issue with locking the AT satchel behind that tech also if "just get conscripts" is the argument against them getting snares.

How about T1 makes it easier for easier to get T2? Something like making T2 cheaper if T1 is built could be something?
Or another idea I think people were kicking around would be to move some of cost from T3 into T2 so anyone going into T1 gets a faster T3?

At least from what I gather from the current changes is that there is a push to make penal openings more viable. With penals still only having a single squad that could snare (which is extremely short range) and the fact that penal openings pretty much only have PTRS rifles to contest armor leaves a lot to be desired for them. Giving them better access to snares would be something to help that.

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The AT Paras/AT PG/AT PF/AT ST/AT SP do not have snares at all. With the recent buff there is not reason for Penal to have snare (especially 1 shot ones) either.

The AT Paras/AT PG/AT PF/AT ST/AT SP do not have snares at all. With the recent buff there is not reason for Penal to have snare (especially 1 shot ones) either.

There are reasons and you had them explained to you multiple times by multiple people, in fact its the exact same reasons as on life, however you have chosen to ignore them all and keep pushing your ignorant bullshit.

As long as penals are not able to reliably deal at least 160 damage on opening salvo against a med tank, AT satchel is to stay.

I'm not sure what other situations you'd really want to use them or any AT infantry in. They're also not suddenly going to do so much worse than the others on open ground or while chasing. PTRS rifles have more range than other handheld AT weapons, they can't miss, they fire just as fast as zookas and Pschrecks now, and Penals have more effective hitpoints. And now they have the DPM to match the others too. And best of all, tanks can't push them around without eating a satchel.

Hand AT, with the exception of PTRS are about burst damage. The DPM on the penals might be the same as other AT but a misstep in front of pgrens or fussies mean 240 damage off your tank, penals are half that.

If course soviet AT infantry fill a slightly different role. Their being a ward as opposed to something to hunt and the 3rd PTRS will make that meaningful. But their job is to protect their vulnerable casemate AT. Not hunt enemies. so the different application of damage in combination of the snare is acceptable.

They are well balanced at the moment.

Can you hold attack from two fronts? From thouse who think they are OP and thouse who think they are UP

As for how it fares in any real game, AT infantry excels at chasing and microing them between reloads. They are not as good at holding ground. This is totally opposite with PTRS.

PTRS just got their ready aim time massively reduced so that's no longer the case. They will be good at chasing vehicles too now, as well as having good alpha damage (at least versus lights). PTRS has more range too (40 vs 35) so they'll be harder to kite or run away from than other AT infantry. They can't be pushed around when engaging a vehicle in the open. And with 3 PTRS now they can have similar DPM to Bazookas or Panzerschecks unless the latter get pretty lucky RNG (pens for Bazookas and hits for Panzerschrecks).

Hand AT, with the exception of PTRS are about burst damage. The DPM on the penals might be the same as other AT but a misstep in front of pgrens or fussies mean 240 damage off your tank, penals are half that

Bazookas and Panzerschrecks require quite a lot of RNG to deal full damage though. At higher ranges Bazookas often miss or they don't pen, Panzerschrecks often miss. The PTRS always hits. As these small tests seem to indicate, now their DPM isn't far behind the average DPM of the others, or at least their higher effective hitpoints makes up for DPM, as long as the others don't get lucky RNG.


TLDR, the original argument was that they wouldn't be able to fight mediums at all. This is not true anymore, they can be quite a threat now. Not far behind other AT infantry.