[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

"Midgame" is around when the T-70 hits. Unfortunately soviets are designed around a vehicular powerspike at that stage in the game, not an infantry borne one.

Okw has their powerspikes earlier, in stg,s and luchs.
And how does any of that have to with the molly vs flame nade difference? Prior to vet 2 the molly is a joke when compared to the inc nade. And even then with the range its still a bit better at dislodging the enemy. Allowing the stg,s to open up.

Okw has their powerspikes earlier, in stg,s and luchs.
And how does any of that have to with the molly vs flame nade difference? Prior to vet 2 the molly is a joke when compared to the inc nade. And even then with the range its still a bit better at dislodging the enemy. Allowing the stg,s to open up.

Yes, and? He was lamenting the lack of midgame weapon upgrades for Cons, I was stating that the faction is instead balanced around the "mandatory" t70, which is a rather larger powerspike than either STGs, or the Luchs. I'm not stating this is "good", but this is why they don't have a midgame weapon upgrade. (As well as a strange desire for Lelic to insist cons can't have nondoc weaponry).

Cons also scale to be far better infantry than Volks, coupling with their increased utility this helps to explain why the molotov is "worse" (Until vet2, at which point it is relatively equal to the Incendiary. Shorter range, but cheaper and does its damage immediately... and also comes on a squad that can sprint nondoctrinally.)

Directly comparing individual abilities between factions is really not productive, there're a lot of factors that need to be taken into account.

The 10% nerf to accuracy this patch will cut the 'far' part of scaling.

Cons also scale to be far better infantry than Volks,

At the top end of each of their scales, volks at vet5 are stronger than cons at vet3.

This much is clear. I'm wondering what makes you think that cons are stronger than volks.

At the top end of each of their scales, volks at vet5 are stronger than cons at vet3.

This much is clear. I'm wondering what makes you think that cons are stronger than volks.

Have you tested vet 5 VG vs vet3 7 men conscripts in cover to cover fight?

Yes, and? He was lamenting the lack of midgame weapon upgrades for Cons, I was stating that the faction is instead balanced around the "mandatory" t70, which is a rather larger powerspike than either STGs, or the Luchs. I'm not stating this is "good", but this is why they don't have a midgame weapon upgrade. (As well as a strange desire for Lelic to insist cons can't have nondoc weaponry).

Cons also scale to be far better infantry than Volks, coupling with their increased utility this helps to explain why the molotov is "worse" (Until vet2, at which point it is relatively equal to the Incendiary. Shorter range, but cheaper and does its damage immediately... and also comes on a squad that can sprint nondoctrinally.)

Directly comparing individual abilities between factions is really not productive, there're a lot of factors that need to be taken into account.

Yeah you cant compare it directly,

Axis mg's suppress a lot faster limiting the sprint advantidge greatly.

molly can be sprinted forwards for 15 muni i believe it is. Because of this the shorter range is logical. The vet 0 low throw speed made sense when flame crits excisted. Shorter range and longer aninimation are to much to compensate for sprint, its double punishment. And you need to tech it just for cons.
Now vet 2 buffs speed instead of range, wich is great, it makes the molly usable instead of the lollotov.
As for cons being cheaper, they are cheaper out of the gate but not for long. Their 3 techs make sure off that. That is why they scale better, along sider weaker stock medium and no stock elte inf.

The maxim still reguraly eats nades frontaly, allowing volks to get their inc nade of frontaly wich cons can never hope to do with slower animation is a great advantidge on top of their range advantidge. The timer is a soft counter to both those advantidges, it still forces movement already deneying cover a lot of the times. The combination of range on both stg and inc nade also makes volks stronger anti garrison.

Have you tested vet 5 VG vs vet3 7 men conscripts in cover to cover fight?

seems stacked doesn't it? pitting offensive infantry against a unit whos entire job is to outlast the enemy, with an upgrade specifically to make that happen in a scenario that inherently favors that?

can we test ostroppen in cover against shocks in cover at max range next to determine who is the better unit?

seems stacked doesn't it? pitting offensive infantry against a unit whos entire job is to outlast the enemy, with an upgrade specifically to make that happen in a scenario that inherently favors that?

can we test ostroppen in cover against shocks in cover at max range next to determine who is the better unit?

My post is response to claim that is simply false, vet 5 VG are not stronger than vet 3 7 men conscripts.

VGs are long range infatry mainline infatry, but feel free to do the test every 5 meters if you want a more complete picture.

seems stacked doesn't it? pitting offensive infantry against a unit whos entire job is to outlast the enemy, with an upgrade specifically to make that happen in a scenario that inherently favors that?

can we test ostroppen in cover against shocks in cover at max range next to determine who is the better unit?

[Live] Vet 3 7man Cons vs Vet 5 Stg-Volks

Effective HP: ~789 vs ~520, thats ~52% more HP

Dmg at range 5/15/25/35:
Cons 30,1/23,8/19,6/12,6; Volks 36,9/28,1/20,9/11,7
So Volks have 22%/18%/6%/-7% more dmg.

Conclusio: 7man vet 3 cons are superior to vet 5 Volks with Stgs, there is no reason to discuss this. Ofc the Cons ugrade has a later timing than Stgs on Volks and should therefore be more potent in theory. But i think its reasonable to adjust the vet of Cons (see balance patch), cause their veterancy was balanced around no stock (weapon) upgrade. So after adding one, this is the next step.

Cons seem a bit lackluster in the midgame though. Maybe molotov could be a little bit better before vet2.

[Live] Vet 3 7man Cons vs Vet 5 Stg-Volks

Effective HP: ~789 vs ~520, thats ~52% more HP

Dmg at range 5/15/25/35:
Cons 30,1/23,8/19,6/12,6; Volks 36,9/28,1/20,9/11,7
So Volks have 22%/18%/6%/-7% more dmg.

Conclusio: 7man vet 3 cons are superior to vet 5 Volks with Stgs, there is no reason to discuss this. Ofc the Cons ugrade has a later timing than Stgs on Volks and should therefore be more potent in theory. But i think its reasonable to adjust the vet of Cons (see balance patch), cause their veterancy was balanced around no stock (weapon) upgrade. So after adding one, this is the next step.

Cons seem a bit lackluster in the midgame though. Maybe molotov could be a little bit better before vet2.

In other words, volks rushing cons in cover won't win, neither the cons rushing volks in cover will win. In late game, where cover is plentiful and the focus is more on the tanks/arty, it works well going vs stuka as opposed to going vs katy (one is alpha strike that deletes everything that is caught, other is an area denier that can wipe if no retreat is ordered, but chances are you'll survive).
Cons do not deserve nerfs.

In other words, volks rushing cons in cover won't win, neither the cons rushing volks in cover will win. In late game, where cover is plentiful and the focus is more on the tanks/arty, it works well going vs stuka as opposed to going vs katy (one is alpha strike that deletes everything that is caught, other is an area denier that can wipe if no retreat is ordered, but chances are you'll survive).
Cons do not deserve nerfs.

Cons dont have to rush anything. Thats the problem. They win long range, so Volks have to close distance, but while advancing you are likely to lose models cause volks have omegabad rec acc. There is no way that volks win over 7man cons. But they dont have to. There are Obers and the 7man upgrade comse way later than Stgs so Volks have a window of pportunity there.

Cons dont have to rush anything. Thats the problem. They win long range, so Volks have to close distance, but while advancing you are likely to lose models cause volks have omegabad rec acc. There is no way that volks win over 7man cons. But they dont have to. There are Obers and the 7man upgrade comse way later than Stgs so Volks have a window of pportunity there.

Cons are designed to carry you through the whole game.
Volks are designed with obers supporting them from mid game onwards.

Cons start weak and become strong.
Volks start strong, peak in early mid game(light vehicle phase) and fall off late game.

And both work fine and as intended.
Cons will be slightly weaker post patch, but the overall dynamic between mainlines isn't going to change.

My post is response to claim that is simply false, vet 5 VG are not stronger than vet 3 7 men conscripts.

VGs are long range infatry mainline infatry, but feel free to do the test every 5 meters if you want a more complete picture.

Volks arnt long range infantry they are every range infantry, at least after the stg upgrade hits slightly after 45 seconds into the game.
Volks have the tools to be aggressive against cons in an insta throw long range cover denial grenade and weapons that work well on the move.
Regardless cons are SUPPOSED to be cost effective defenders late game as they are nothing more than that due to no concentrated DPS or burst damage of any sort.
Whats more, cons don't have things like obers to support them every game.


That's not to say volks vet doesn't need a looksy but comparing a unit in its element to one that is not as a means to paint a picture is uninformative and extremely misleading.

Cons dont have to rush anything. Thats the problem. They win long range, so Volks have to close distance, but while advancing you are likely to lose models cause volks have omegabad rec acc. There is no way that volks win over 7man cons. But they dont have to. There are Obers and the 7man upgrade comse way later than Stgs so Volks have a window of pportunity there.

See above.

Volks arnt long range infantry they are every range infantry, at least after the stg upgrade hits slightly after 45 seconds into the game.
Volks have the tools to be aggressive against cons in an insta throw long range cover denial grenade and weapons that work well on the move.
Regardless cons are SUPPOSED to be cost effective defenders late game as they are nothing more than that due to no concentrated DPS or burst damage of any sort.
Whats more, cons don't have things like obers to support them every game.


That's not to say volks vet doesn't need a looksy but comparing a unit in its element to one that is not as a means to paint a picture is uninformative and extremely misleading.

I did not paint any picture
I did not mislead anyone
I have not even suggested a range that is optimal for VGs, I have not even suggested any range for a test

I have simply asked the user making the claim that "volks at vet5 are stronger than cons at vet3" if he has actually tested his theory or he just guessing.

(Imo you are being a little bit unfair to be honest. I am also a bit surprised since usually your post are of higher quality)

(If you actually believe that Vet 5 VG are stronger than vet 3 7men conscripts pls produce any sort of evidence to support your claim)

Cons dont have to rush anything. Thats the problem. They win long range, so Volks have to close distance, but while advancing you are likely to lose models cause volks have omegabad rec acc. There is no way that volks win over 7man cons. But they dont have to. There are Obers and the 7man upgrade comse way later than Stgs so Volks have a window of pportunity there.

Well, if the soviet is holding ground, they don't. If soviet needs to capture, they pretty much do. Trying to be offensive by camping behind cover won't net you a win vs a capable OKW player. They will either stuka you, flank you or just use leigs. It all depends how skillful you are. All mainline infantry is good so far. There is a reason OKW starts of with sturmpios which shred everything close to mid range, cover or no cover. A good OKW player will capitalize on that.

What I mean is. Late game, where cover matters, every faction has enough tools to displace. If your mainline infantry loses to a straight shootout cover to cover. Then don't do that???

Each and every time one unit will be superior, be it superior by design, veterancy (longer on the field), upgrades (investment). Nobody can and should not complain about late game infantry supremacy in this or that faction.

What I mean is. Late game, where cover matters, every faction has enough tools to displace. If your mainline infantry loses to a straight shootout cover to cover. Then don't do that???

Each and every time one unit will be superior, be it superior by design, veterancy (longer on the field), upgrades (investment). Nobody can and should not complain about late game infantry supremacy in this or that faction.

1. Thats the problem. 7man cons are way superior in this case. They can tank way more arty and tank shells than Volks and Obers explode even faster. Their power to hold point is incredible. And they are really cheap to maintain. They still threat with snare and can even beat voks reliable. Thats why they get a nerf on vet 3.
2.So a vet3 240 mp 60 muni squad is supposed to reliably beat a 260 mp 60 muni vet 5 squad? Ok then let me beat rifle with grens at that stage .

Cons are designed to carry you through the whole game.
Volks are designed with obers supporting them from mid game onwards.

Cons start weak and become strong.
Volks start strong, peak in early mid game(light vehicle phase) and fall off late game.

And both work fine and as intended.
Cons will be slightly weaker post patch, but the overall dynamic between mainlines isn't going to change.

Maybe in your dreams. Cons had no stock upgrade for 6 years until the balance team added it. And i still think that a combat upgrade for cons is dumb and they should get more utility instead of this.

The problem with nerfing the Vet 3 on the Conscripts is now that it's going to make PPSH cons even more weak. PPSH Cons are so bad compared to 7 man upgrade or SVT's. PPSH Cons really need some love.

2.So a vet3 240 mp 60 muni squad is supposed to reliably beat a 260 mp 60 muni vet 5 squad? Ok then let me beat rifle with grens at that stage .

conscripts arent 240mp btw... theyre 240mp + the base cost of 125 + 80mp + 20 fuel (in live)...

for a 4 conscript build thats 291mp

for a 3 conscript build thats 308mp

also youre ignoring sight and medkits which most definitely have value outside of a 4v4/3v3 teamgame...

u wanna make vet 5 volks beat vet 3 cons?... gate faust and incend behind a 125 + 80mp/20 fuel upgrade and remove free healing and sight bonus.....

The problem with nerfing the Vet 3 on the Conscripts is now that it's going to make PPSH cons even more weak.

SMG troops are the least effected by accuracy bonuses.

PPSH Cons are so bad compared to 7 man upgrade or SVT's.
PPSH Cons really need some love.

That is simply powercreep and not really argument for buffing (more of argument to nerfing SVT/7men). A units power level is determined according to what it is facing not what other option are there:

Alright I ran some tests to try and get some decent data. 7 tests of variable scenarios:

Show Spoiler

Overall I was surprised, the Conscripts and Pioneer Conscripts both exceeded my expectations. It looks like you were right, they would moderately outclass unupgraded Assault Grenadiers.

While the weakened Assault Package would clearly be ineffective against any other assault unit, it's not as poor as I thought it would be, capable of fending off upgraded Grenadiers after a charge. While a middle-ground between the Pioneer MP 40 and Conscript PPSh might be a good balance point for a new stock SMG squad, for Conscript Assault Package I would prefer it stay as is and just come at a reduced price or earlier time; the weakened PPSh would certainly be a nerf.

Not gonna lie, these Pioneer MP 40's are making me think that Assault Osttruppen might be fun to see.

SMG troops are the least effected by accuracy bonuses.

That is simply powercreep and not really argument for buffing (more of argument to nerfing SVT/7men). A units power level is determined according to what it is facing not what other option are there:

What PPSH Conscripts are facing: STG Volks, PGrens, Sturmpioneers and Fallschirmjagers all of which utterly murder murder PPSH Cons. PPSH Cons are so bad because they were balanced before OKW existed and before Panzer Grens were buffed and dominated the meta.