[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

That is because you choose to compare it with medium tanks while it is a TD. I has less range then most allied TD, less penetration and less accuracy. On top of that it cost more and has higher pop.


PzIV is good vs mediums but it is not got vs premium mediums and get rolf stop by heavy tanks(not super heavy).


Allied TDs get 3 times the bonus Panther gets while more accurate to begin with and while vetting faster.

The panther has the best aspects of mediums and good aspects of heavies, such as armour hp and heavy crush. And its range acc and pen are in between mediums and td's. Its only 2 real minusses are low ai output and its justifiably high cost. Its not a td its at focused tank.

The p4's are better vs stock allied mediums in at and better in ai the 2 out of the 3. They should not also beat premium meds of allies. That what you have stugs jp4 for.

The panther is meant to be beefy and quite mobile as its base stats show. Allied td's are meant to outrange and snipe away at axis armour. Both their vet show this. And yet somehow the panther needs vet that is apropriate for td's while allied td's dont get vet that is apropriate for panthers.

The acc buff on the panther is illogical. Axis have plenty at for every stage of the game. Acc is less imporatant vs heavy and super tanks. This is where the panthers time frame lies, big tanks are easier to hit.

The panther has the best aspects of mediums and good aspects of heavies, such as armour hp and heavy crush.

I thought it lost the heavy crush years ago? Ie: rolling over hedges? Can crush infantry still but that's not saying much.

I thought it lost the heavy crush years ago? Ie: rolling over hedges? Can crush infantry still but that's not saying much.

Panthers always had heavy crush since coh1... This just shows how people have no idea what the fuck they are talking about.

if panthers get any more buffs they will be insane killing machines, they are already incredibly effective right now.

A panther firing on T-34/76 has a

120%/90%/70% chance to score a natural hit at range 0/25/50 and 60%/45%/35 if moving.

At vet 2 it will have 132%/99%/77% and 66%/49.5%/38.5 if moving.

(Vet 2 requiring 4.080 XP, roughly killing 3 T-34/76)

Panther can park so close it will literally insert its gun into T34s turret and will win without a sweat.
None of the allied TDs can do the same to P4.

Panthers always had heavy crush since coh1... This just shows how people have no idea what the fuck they are talking about.

if panthers get any more buffs they will be insane killing machines, they are already incredibly effective right now.

Okay, I must have confused it with an old thread where someone lobbied hard to get the Heavy Crush removed and thought that got through. My bad. Doesn't change the validity of my points earlier, the stats I checked off serealia today. GL using Panthers on most 3v3/4v4 maps that aren't heavy urban unless you like feeding TDs vet.

Okay, I must have confused it with an old thread where someone lobbied hard to get the Heavy Crush removed and thought that got through. My bad. Doesn't change the validity of my points earlier, the stats I checked off serealia today. GL using Panthers on most 3v3/4v4 maps that aren't heavy urban unless you like feeding TDs vet.

Panthers are quite good on all 3v3 and 4v4 maps. Literally all. Don't know how you play your Coh but from what I've seen and have played against, Panther are used quite effectively at flanking and when they reach critical mass, you just crush everything by going around on the flanks. Nothing will be able to stop it. TDs can't really self spot so that the Panther feeds them vet. Of course, if you only go head on, it's not really a balance issue.

The panther has the best aspects of mediums and good aspects of heavies, such as armour hp and heavy crush. And its range acc and pen are in between mediums and td's. Its only 2 real minusses are low ai output and its justifiably high cost. Its not a td its at focused tank.

Call Panther what you like but it still a vehicles designed to fight other vehicles and it has higher tech cost, higher pop and higher cost than mediums and even premium mediums. Comparing it with dual role main battle tanks is simply misleading.

Comet also armor/HP and Heavy crush and that mean little.

The p4's are better vs stock allied mediums in at and better in ai the 2 out of the 3. They should not also beat premium meds of allies. That what you have stugs jp4 for.

Not really.
A main battle tank performance vs other main battle tanks is related to its cost. PzIV J is also "premium" medium if you like.

The panther is meant to be beefy and quite mobile as its base stats show. Allied td's are meant to outrange and snipe away at axis armour. Both their vet show this. And yet somehow the panther needs vet that is apropriate for td's while allied td's dont get vet that is apropriate for panthers.

Again not really.
Vet bonus are meant to help unit become better at what it is designed to do.

The acc buff on the panther is illogical. Axis have plenty at for every stage of the game. Acc is less imporatant vs heavy and super tanks. This is where the panthers time frame lies, big tanks are easier to hit.

Again not really.

Finally the only thing illogical here here is the fuss about the a vet bonuses that come at vet 2. It is already available to the OKW Panther for years now via the commander upgrade and it hardly game breaking.

We can debate theory all you want but the bonus is hardly game changing.

If Relic had decided to separate TDs in "heavy" TDs and "Mediums" TDs (better vs heavies and better vs mediums) I would be all for it and actually I had suggested it years ago. But that would mean that all Heavy TDs should less effective vs mediums and that would have to include Panther/Su-85/M36/FF.

That is simply not the case so far.

Panthers are quite good on all 3v3 and 4v4 maps. Literally all. Don't know how you play your Coh but from what I've seen and have played against, Panther are used quite effectively at flanking and when they reach critical mass, you just crush everything by going around on the flanks. Nothing will be able to stop it. TDs can't really self spot so that the Panther feeds them vet. Of course, if you only go head on, it's not really a balance issue.

I generally try to avoid using Panthers outside of urban maps because my opponents cover their flanks with mines and AT weapons, so flanking isn't an option unless you are suiciding their arty. And as we both know, frontal engagements with TDs are a bad outcome. More reliable options such as the JP4 cannot be outranged by nondoc TDs and scale better overall.

Okay tell me how you can flank a TD group on Redball in the left or right area, covering the centre as well with AT guns and mines(with all the hedges destroyed of course)? Or Road to Arnhem where the distance between base and frontline is relatively short and mines easily shut down the far side approaches? How do you flank on Lienne Forest when they camp the town and mid? Go try your luck through the forest openings and hope they don't have it mined off and the constant stream of units don't notice you?

Remember, one mine is all it takes to stop your 185 FU Panther flank and they'll be merciless in destroying the crippled thing. One mine.

Key words: Critical Mass. An Allied team that has allowed you to spam 185 FU tanks has virtually lost the match already. Where's the pressure? The early fuel denial? Their early tank power via meds? Are they allowing the Axis team to have KTs/super heavy TDs? Might as well surrender if they have the fuel for this Panther blob o'doom. Hell I might as well get 6 Panthers if they're giving away all that time and resources.

Of course then there's 'General Allies' which is perfect for your flanking scenario and drowns the Axis players in FU, but I'm surprised most 3v3+ Allied players haven't vetoed that place yet.


Note: At no point do I say the TD vs Panther matchup is a bad one overall. It works well enough, though I do agree that the vet II pen increase was too much for TDs in general.

I can't speak for the others, but I think the choice between the Panther and the Jagdpanzer IV / StuG is mostly a player preference and/or map/situation dependant. One isn't necessarily better/worse than the other against similar targets. I'd say all of them perform roughly similar against most targets at the moment. The JP4 has the range and DPM advantage, the StuG has the cost effectiveness advantage (get two for 1 Panther) and the Panther has the generalist/brawler advantage.

The Panther however, is a mix of mostly mediocre characteristics. It has mediocre DPM, mediocre accuracy, kinda mediocre pen (for an AT vehicle), good but not fantastic mobility, held together with high durability. The complete package is good, but any one of those aspects on its own isn't anything to write home about. It is supposed to expose itself though, mostly by diving, where the current accuracy is often not adequate and it makes dives/attacks more risky than they should be. That is why it is being buffed slightly.

That being said, the accuracy buff is being toned down in V2. And if it turns out that the Panther with increased accuracy becomes too good, then we can nerf something else about it later.

how about making the moving acc 60-75% ?

at least stationary it would not hit target it's not supposed if u simply buff the MA instead

Call Panther what you like but it still a vehicles designed to fight other vehicles and it has higher tech cost, higher pop and higher cost than mediums and even premium mediums. Comparing it with dual role main battle tanks is simply misleading.

Comet also armor/HP and Heavy crush and that mean little.


Not really.
A main battle tank performance vs other main battle tanks is related to its cost. PzIV J is also "premium" medium if you like.



Again not really.
Vet bonus are meant to help unit become better at what it is designed to do.



Again not really.

Finally the only thing illogical here here is the fuss about the a vet bonuses that come at vet 2. It is already available to the OKW Panther for years now via the commander upgrade and it hardly game breaking.

We can debate theory all you want but the bonus is hardly game changing.

If Relic had decided to separate TDs in "heavy" TDs and "Mediums" TDs (better vs heavies and better vs mediums) I would be all for it and actually I had suggested it years ago. But that would mean that all Heavy TDs should less effective vs mediums and that would have to include Panther/Su-85/M36/FF.

That is simply not the case so far.

Claiming its a td is also misleading. Its a mix of medium tanks heavy tanks and a bit of a td's.

You underestimate what heavy crush does for the tank who has it. It wont get stuck and it can flank through trees.

So more accurate td's get an accuracy bonus. Beefy tanks get armour or hp. And thats somehow not indicating whats its designed to do?

Relic put med td's light td's and heavy td's in the game already. The panther is its own beast. As i said before it has great atributes of med and heavy tanks. And moderate bits of td's.

The panther is already pretty forgiving with its high armour hp and speed. Not to mention pzr tct. You have a very high chance to get your panther out alive unless you royaly screw up.
I doesnt need or deserve a buff. Its very strong already. Its only reliably counter is hard dedicated at.

Allow me to shed some light on why the panther may be receiving some kind of accuracy buff.

Claiming its a td is also misleading. Its a mix of medium tanks heavy tanks and a bit of a td's.

Again call it what ever you want, it does not make any difference. Panther is still a vehicles designed to counter enemy vehicles.

You underestimate what heavy crush does for the tank who has it. It wont get stuck and it can flank through trees.

I do not, but heavy crash is available to other vehicles like the Comet and it also "available" to UKF engineers for free with the destroy cover ability or for 30 munition to CE via demolition charges.

Again call it what ever you want, it does not make any difference. Panther is still a vehicles designed to counter enemy vehicles.

Are you trying to say it doesn't counter vehicles? If so, than I just surrender everything and will avoid these threads for the foreseeable future. Please say that the Panther is not a counter to enemy vehicles.

Allow me to shed some light on why the panther may be receiving some kind of accuracy buff.

And I've had panthers not miss my Stuart 3 times in a row, moving on long and close to long range.
If you want the Panther not to miss then buff the accuracy to 100% and such RNG won't happen.

Allow me to shed some light on why the panther may be receiving some kind of accuracy buff.

Oh no, 1 shot missed, better buff the panther.

Oh no, 1 shot missed, better buff the panther.

Exactly, so if that is the case...

Mega buffs for the Churchil incoming?


And the AT guns?

And I've had panthers not miss my Stuart 3 times in a row, moving on long and close to long range.
If you want the Panther not to miss then buff the accuracy to 100% and such RNG won't happen.

Oh no, 1 shot missed, better buff the panther.

Got it. I now understand balance. If something is doing something it shouldn't be, it's just based RNG and just L2P. I'll remember that next time I drive my panther into my opponents base to kill a katy.

ISU-152 deleting squads from 70 range? Just dodge

Exactly, so if that is the case...

Mega buffs for the Churchil incoming?


And the AT guns?

We're comparing driving our tanks into AT guns and fausts with no support to missing a katy at 15 range? The fact that you drove into AT guns, get snared, and still just drive away is testament to the churchill's viability at a damage soak.........

Then saying an AT gun can't hit another AT gun when it's decrewed and getting flanked by a hetzer because again..... no support. Clearly my point has been usurped by quality counter arguments.

Allow me to shed some light on why the panther may be receiving some kind of accuracy buff.

Bug or it was considered still moving? Cause static it should not miss at that range since it has way over 100% acc.

Bug or it was considered still moving? Cause static it should not miss at that range since it has way over 100% acc.

It wasn't considered moving. It's at like 15ish range, maybe 18. But at that range it shouldn't miss that.

Exactly, so if that is the case...

Mega buffs for the Churchil incoming?


And the AT guns?

Churchill was moving tho panther was not

at gun was max range not close