Panther time to fire is slow need a vet buff

why do you think panther have slow rof? i take a lock at the modding tool and see the following at vet 0:
Panther reload: 5.6/5.2
e8 reload: 6.6/6
comet reload: 6.4/5.9
so event when taking in 1s of windown that only the panther have, it reload and fire time is comparable with british and us premium med, with 10 more range. So, what is the point ?

on the moving acc, only the e8 come out on top with 0.75, which is an us perk. Comet have standard 0.5.

btw, the tulip rocket deal only 120 dmg each, which suprise me by a lot.

talking of vet, regarding reload, panther, e8 and comet all have to wait till vet 3 to get better reload and at that point, the panther get 30% compare to 20% of the other two, and comet doesnt event have reload vet up to last major patch. again, problem ?

Allies have a clear advantage when it comes to TDs. Now if ones combines that with fact that they have an advantage in infatry too (accept some doctrinal solution) one will see why allies play infatry/TDs combo (or some Super heavy) and why axis play with artillery.

While I agree with your assessment, allies will always need to have an edge in TDs as long as panthers and king tigers are stock- 2/3 allied factions can't non doc field armour that will bounce a pak.
Infantry have been power crept to all hell which is definitely problematic.

talking of vet, regarding reload, panther, e8 and comet all have to wait till vet 3 to get better reload and at that point, the panther get 30% compare to 20% of the other two, and comet doesnt event have reload vet up to last major patch. again, problem ?

Reload is one component of ROF.

ROF of for the vehicles you brought up are:

Panther 6.65
Easy8 6.55
Comet 6.4


vet 3
Panther 5.03
Easy8 5.29
Comet 5.17

In addition the vehicles/guns you have chosen to compare fit different categories since Panther has a pure ATG gun while the other have an AI/AT gun.

While I agree with your assessment, allies will always need to have an edge in TDs as long as panthers and king tigers are stock- 2/3 allied factions can't non doc field armour that will bounce a pak.
Infantry have been power crept to all hell which is definitely problematic.

I have been reading recently a number of post portraying a picture of axis TDs being on parallel with allied. I have simply pointed out that this not the case.

The question imo is not weather allies need better TDs than axis but if their current performance/design is good. Imo it is not. This units should not be so powerful nor should they be so expensive.

The Panther doesn't need an RoF buff. If it needs anything, it's an accuracy buff. But for now I'll just stick to Panzer commanders.

im confused (doesnt take much to confuse me)

for those that understand the voodoo numbers on the stats website, was there a accuracy buff for the panther when using blitz? and was it for OKW or OST, or both?

im confused (doesnt take much to confuse me)

for those that understand the voodoo numbers on the stats website, was there a accuracy buff for the panther when using blitz? and was it for OKW or OST, or both?

OKW Panther/KT get 1.2 accuracy buff with Combat blitz ONLY when moving (and have a penalty in accuracy).

In other words if Combat blitz in on P/KT will have a 0.6 penalty when firing on the move instead of 0.5 penalty.


Ostheer vehicles do not accuracy bonus with Blitzkrieg Tactics.

Hope this is clear and will help.

I have been reading recently a number of post portraying a picture of axis TDs being on parallel with allied. I have simply pointed out that this not the case.

With low target size, high ROF, high accuracy, camo at vet 1, 800hp at vet 2 and other good veterancy bonuses, as well as the possibility to use HEAT shells, I would definitely rate the Jagdpanzer IV amongst the top of all the TDs.

While I agree with your assessment, allies will always need to have an edge in TDs as long as panthers and king tigers are stock- 2/3 allied factions can't non doc field armour that will bounce a pak.
Infantry have been power crept to all hell which is definitely problematic.

Thing is, all TDs right right now have pretty much 100% chance of penetration against mediums and at the same time all non-premium mediums have relatively same pefromance vs heavy tanks, in other words T34\76 is garbo against heavies, but so is PIV.

And in the end if Axis really need something to fight KVs\IS\ISU and churchills they do need to get panthers, which is second the most expensive non-doc vehicle in the game and more over it requares agressive hit-n-run play.

To put it to put it bluntly, jackson\SU-85\Firefly was buffed to fight heavies, snowballing into the fact that they are effective against litteraly any armored unit, while Axis TDs were left at the same level of old allied TDs.

Patch after patch, Soviet and UKF heavy play become very common aswell as timings were shifted.

Also speaking about stock panther, at least panther has 90 rear armor, meaning that as long as anything hits it in the butt it will take damage. Even T34\76 would have 100% chance of rear armor penetration at max distance.

But still this is uttely idiotic, that all heavies rear armor is almost completly immune against mediums.

Thing is, all TDs right right now have pretty much 100% chance of penetration against mediums and at the same time all non-premium mediums have relatively same pefromance vs heavy tanks, in other words T34\76 is garbo against heavies, but so is PIV.

And in the end if Axis really need something to fight KVs\IS\ISU and churchills they do need to get panthers, which is second the most expensive non-doc vehicle in the game and more over it requares agressive hit-n-run play.

To put it to put it bluntly, jackson\SU-85\Firefly was buffed to fight heavies, snowballing into the fact that they are effective against litteraly any armored unit, while Axis TDs were left at the same level of old allied TDs.

Patch after patch, Soviet and UKF heavy play become very common aswell as timings were shifted.

Also speaking about stock panther, at least panther has 90 rear armor, meaning that as long as anything hits it in the butt it will take damage. Even T34\76 would have 100% chance of rear armor penetration at max distance.

But still this is uttely idiotic, that all heavies rear armor is almost completly immune against mediums.

you wont finmd any disagreement from me. ive been on the side of that needing been changed for a long long time, and i was a very loud voice in the su85 getting changed in the first place

ive suggested changes of my own including lowering dedicated TD pen but granting deflection damage or widening the range of armour/pen so that fine tuning can be made and supporting others suggestions like cranking medium tank close range pen so that they can be useable against heavy tanks or lowering heavy rear armour all in name of better balance.

however we look at it though allies NEED a stock heavy TD because they are facing very durable armour guaranteed when fighting axis. the panther being expensive imo isnt so much an issue because its either going to be fighting meatshields that while cheaper lack the bite to be a huge threat or proper heavies that are more expensive at which point the panther is cost efficient.

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Mediums are not very effective in this game because the engine does not model side armor.

thank you vipper, will have that in mind when i play OKW next time.

still, for OST, the panther feels like meh, for what it was intended for, i still stand behind buffing its accuracy on the move, pen,speed,armour,HP don't count for much if it cant hit the bloody thing its aiming at.

thank you vipper, will have that in mind when i play OKW next time.

still, for OST, the panther feels like meh, for what it was intended for, i still stand behind buffing its accuracy on the move, pen,speed,armour,HP don't count for much if it cant hit the bloody thing its aiming at.

The panthers main role is to fight heavies (wich your not garanteed to face as axis). There the pen speed armour hp count for everything. Acc on the move above 0,5 however is not justified nor needed for this job.
Higher mov acc will buff it preformance vs mediums way to much, to such an extent making paks shrecks stugs etc less favorable and less efficient choices, and shutting down med tank play all together. And making td,s rush or spam for allies even more nessecary.

Reload is one component of ROF.

ROF of for the vehicles you brought up are:

Panther 6.65
Easy8 6.55
Comet 6.4


vet 3
Panther 5.03
Easy8 5.29
Comet 5.17

In addition the vehicles/guns you have chosen to compare fit different categories since Panther has a pure ATG gun while the other have an AI/AT gun.

yes, what i was trying to point out is panther doesnt have slow rof as the OP stated. I can load the tool and easily come up with stat of TD, i dont know about the others but certainly the panther have better ROF than the FF for beginning.

...

Small update.

Out of interest, I've calculated the probabilities for the following scenario:
3 StuGs or 2 SU85s (reasoning that both vehicles are casemates, their cost in fuel of the setup is exactly the same plus they are the most similar in ROF) shoot at a 300 armor target (e.g. Tiger/Pershing) at range 50.
Both groups are allowed to shoot twice, making 4 and 6 shots for SUs and StuGs, respectively.


So, small summary of probabilities:


Failure to stop the enemy, defined as the units manage to pen only 0-2 times
SU85s = 27,1%
StuGs = 22,8%
Also chances for 0 or one hit are comparable, if not negligible anyway.

Chances that one group fares better than the other, defined as they get at least one more pen than the other group:
SU85s better: 27,0%
StuGs better: 47,6%
both the same: 25,4%

Chances that one group fares MUCH better than the other, defined as they get at least TWO more pens than the other group:
SU85s much better: 9,6%
StuGs much better: 23,4%
groups perform "similar" (meaning the pens do not differ by more than 1): 67,0%


I obviously have to leave a lot out of this, for example that it is harder to micro 3 StuGs than 2 SUs, the 10 range difference that would allow the SUs to shoot a bit earlier, veterancy, but on the other hand I also neglegted accuracy and scatter both in which the StuG fares better as well as ROF were the StuG leads as well by 0,4s as well as defensive values such as armor and health pool that you get from those. Plus obviously the MP cost and pop cap etc etc etc...

I also quickly checked for higher veterancy (meaning basically higher pen for the SU85), but still neglecting everything else:
Here the SUs are far ahead of the StuGs. Still, in about 79,7% of cases the StuGs fare at least "similar" or better. The biggest difference here is what you already mentioned: The SU85s basically cannot fail to stop the push (assuming here always that all shots hit and they also all hit frontally).
Another quick check on lower armor (260/270 like Panther/KV1) gave similar results, but obviously as expected: vet0 StuGs are even further ahead, vet3 SU85s are better but not as much as against Tiger/Pershing.

Allies have a clear advantage when it comes to TDs. Now if ones combines that with fact that they have an advantage in infatry too (accept some doctrinal solution) one will see why allies play infatry/TDs combo (or some Super heavy) and why axis play with artillery.

Damn, how allies do not have 100% win ratio with advantages everywhere?
In fact, how Ost got some of highest win rate atm?

yes, give moving acc, more armor and also a stuka rockets upgrades just like coh1 hotchkiss then it will be okay.

Kappa

Damn, how allies do not have 100% win ratio with advantages everywhere?
In fact, how Ost got some of highest win rate atm?

Feel free to provide the stats and source about win rates and their respective game modes.

Then feel free to provide stat about how much cost efficient Panther was in those games and explain why OKW who also have access to the Panther are not doing better.

Mediums are not very effective in this game because the engine does not model side armor.

In my opinion they're less effective than they should be because of engine snares. Snare abilities are either too common or too powerful (talking only about infantry snares, not mines) It's crazy to think they use to kill the engine on full health tanks
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I don't think a moving accuracy buff at vet 2 or 3 would be too crazy. Especially since mediums recently got a target reduction

Anything more than that though is unnecessary imo. Panther doesn't really need buffs