Nerf spec ops flares

Maybe move the (now reduced cost to compensate for unit cost gate) anywhere flare to this vehicle? Semi-serious suggestion.

Make it the same price as other unit flares and it would be fine I think.

All offmap flares should be swapped out for recon planes imo.

Also when tanks are getting repaired they give off a not dissimilar glow effect that can make it harder to spot the spotting flares above.

All offmap flares should be swapped out for recon planes imo.

Also when tanks are getting repaired they give off a not dissimilar glow effect that can make it harder to spot the spotting flares above.

I think a big lumbering recon plane does not spark 'spec ops' to me, but I know nothing

I think a big lumbering recon plane does not spark 'spec ops' to me, but I know nothing

#Bring back Raketen mobile camo for Spec Ops tank terror?

EDIT: I am joking if it was unclear.

I think a big lumbering recon plane does not spark 'spec ops' to me, but I know nothing

Yeah but a flare providing reconnaissance during broad daylight makes plenty of sense... Forget the time of day it's a fucking flare. How does it provide recon ever???

#Bring back Raketen mobile camo for Spec Ops tank terror?

You literally just mocked people who thought the Rak was OP, and this is your suggestion? Lol okay

Let's not bring back one of the most cancerous things that's ever been in the game please. Thanks

You literally just mocked people who thought the Rak was OP, and this is your suggestion? Lol okay

Let's not bring back one of the most cancerous things that's ever been in the game please. Thanks

I was being humorous! I would like to see it back, but I acknowledge that it's gone probably for the better. That and Suppresskubels.

Yeah but a flare providing reconnaissance during broad daylight makes plenty of sense... Forget the time of day it's a fucking flare. How does it provide recon ever???

You know what I'm saying.

It's the same reason why infantry doctrines aren't littered with tigers etc.

None of this game makes any real life sense, though there are thematic flavors and I don't think that can be denied.

I was being humorous! I would like to see it back, but I acknowledge that it's gone probably for the better

Lol my bad, but you also say you want it back so there was something to it

"Probably" is a bit of understatement imo

None of this game makes any real life sense, though there are thematic flavors and I don't think that can be denied.

I don't disagree that there are themes, but balance should take priority. Feel free to give another suggestion besides recon plane, the flares should be replaced. Same goes for early warning

I believe someone suggested making it doc flares for ISG. Could bundle that with something else cause that's pretty limited on its own

I don't disagree that there are themes, but balance should take priority. Feel free to give another suggestion besides recon plane, the flares should be replaced. Same goes for early warning

I believe someone suggested making it doc flares for ISG. Could bundle that with something else cause that's pretty limited on its own

I like Sander's suggestion. I feel like it's pretty in line with the doctrine. But I agree, balance is paramount.


As far as overwatch flares go I think a small cost plus letting them be put on neutral points so that you can cap queue is my personal take. More or less the same as tripwire flares but not dropping any models and requiring a point. Also disabled by minesweepers.

Tell that to HelpingHans then, he doesn't seem to know it and uses it with great results all the time in 1v1 and team games alike.

Just because something is not the definitive go-to hardcore meta does not mean its not viable.
Spec OPs flares are OP and it couldn't be more irrelevant which doctrine they are in.

HelpingHans, best CoH2 player in the world. Multiple tournament titles and is part of an eSports Org for his CoH2 play. Oh wait...

Also there's a counter to flares. It's called camo'd units. You can't just pick and choose which of the vision granting off-map flares you want to remove. Either remove them all or leave them as is. I personally would like to see flares exclusively on infantry and available on more mortars than just the Soviets with all iterations of off-map flares including those with the Croc either removed or replaced with a counterable scout plane.

Its very obvious spec ops flares are problematic right now, and I don't think the answer is simply tweaking cost, or cooldown, or AOE or w.e because all you are doing is reducing the cost effectiveness without reducing the cheesiness. I think the ability just needs to be replaced-preferably something with a similar theme.

Here are some ideas I have on replacing it:

1. Make it a clone of the soviet spy network(reveals on minimap only) with appropriate cost increases

2. Replace the ability with "Infantry Flare Packages": Volksgrenadiers can fire flares(like fusiliers), Sturmpioneers can deploy tripwire flare mines, Obers can build the overwatch flare traps.

3. Replace ability with "targetting flares": Select an enemy vehicle, for 20 seconds all units gain bonus accuracy when firing on that vehicle, every 5 seconds a SMALL flare is deployed revealing the location of that vehicle. (This is similar idea to the soviet mark target except with flares/accuracy instead of planes/damage)


I believe these ideas remove the cheesiness of the ability while actually promoting the theme of the commander better than the original ability.

Yeah but a flare providing reconnaissance during broad daylight makes plenty of sense... Forget the time of day it's a fucking flare. How does it

Flares are literally used in real life modern combat to highlight enemy positions. There are infantry fired flares, which work a bit like a firework and quickly light up an area making enemy movement really obvious, if you see one going up your supposed to freeze and slowly lower yourself to the ground, to avoid sudden movements which will be easily spotted.

Second is flares fired by artillery, which are slower and fall on a parachute, when you spot these you are supposed to dive to the ground as fast as you can.

It doesn't need to be dark at all. They do their job in anything but the brightest conditions.


Back to topic: recon flares is literally one of Spec Ops trade mark and best abilities, it needs to be strong. Even if it's made to be more obvious, say with an audio que.

Other commanders with recon have it as a secondary ability usually with powerful off map strikes. This is part of the balance.

Also Soviets have amazing anti air cover in their AA half-track, which is cheap and has good utility as a light vehicle in mid game before becoming a support unit for its AA.

So any axis abilities with planes are supper meh when playing soviets.

They provided much more than you have. You haven't provided anything at all

First I'm not the one coming out with a thread asking for a nerf of an ability without showing any kind of evidence of why it would have to be so, if you want people to reply correctly at any of your request you have to be precise and show them a minimum of reflexion over why you came up with this idea, why they should follow this idea, and the whole illustrated with some example or numbers.

Second,here there was just a lot of players motivated by their emotions more than by their reason calling for a nerf based on their subjective experience more than any concrete reflexion. Despite the lack of any evidence I provided example and even illustated it more than necessary to help some understand.

What are you trying to say? It makes no sense to compare those abilities and it only works against your point, as I just showed you

Can you answer the question? Why does it need to be uncounterable? Why can't we just replace it with a recon plane?

Let's keep it simple:

Il-2 Bomb: have the ability to destroy ------> Need a drawback -----> red flares+vision to cast

Flares: don't have this ability to destroy -----> No need of a drawback -----> no need of those.

Now why is it uncounterable?

Planes: Cover a wider area, last longer, can reveal invisible units -----> Drawback: can be destroyed.

Flares: Smaller area, can't reveal invisible units ect... -------> No need of such drawback.

Those ability are different and flares are unique, and I'm sure what motivates people to a nerf is more than this unique ability from a single commander is specific to the OKW than anything else.

Why can't we just replace it with recon plane? Read Previous post about reco units of the OKW and recent nerf of the IR-HT, you'll understand that without making it a good reco, nerfing the only real reco of the OKW isn't a good idea at all.

Brits have no control where their flares go.
Soviets do not have unlimited range flares, which again, OKW got sov version too on PFs.

thats why it is cheaper and need no doc

Stuka were often use in combinaison with the IR HF for obvious reasons, now that it is gone, flares took its place.
Panzerwerfer still find some use but the unit itself is bad so flares can help negate the really long launch time (wind up) of the launcher.
I talked about the T-70 because after the midgame it can find some use as a recon with it's vets and recon mode, I failed to find a similar use to the Puma but I don't play it often either.

As I already said, all factions have unit based recon, so I don't get why you keep bringing up the T70. Soviets are a bit of a special case because unlike all other factions, they have neither offmap recon nor camo units (apart from snipers that you only get in T1 builds and partisans that have not been viable for years now). All factions however includes Axis as well. To compensate for most of their viable late game recon being bound to vehicles, they have plenty of options on commanders both as offmaps and as camo units. But regardless of what recon you choose, all of them require input, risking a unit and/or can be countered - except for OKW and UKF flares. And only these factions can combine effortless recon with artillery.

I have read through your posts but in my opinion your only point as to why the OKW flares should stay as they are is because they have to be that way for team games.
Why?
OKW has recon options on units, like all other factions.
OKW can combine this recon with rocket artillery, like only Soviets can do
OKW has doctrinal recon options that allow counterplay, like all other factions (except for one UKF commander as already mentioned and Soviets who only get partisans)

I don't see why OKW should get the normal, unit based recon (even a specialized recon unit), rocket artillery and non-counterable recon anywhere on the map in a doctrine. From what I get, you are advocating that OKW has the special right to have access to a (in my opinion badly designed) combination of rocket arty and non-counterable recon because they (or even all of Axis) allegedly need it. But you have not provided any reason why especially Axis need it, when all factions are fine without that. OST is doing well according to general stats and sees a lot of play in tournaments as well, yet they do not have this combination.

replace spec ops flare with the recon overpass from luftwaffe ground forces. Give leig non doc ability to fire flares for a munitions cost. Remove the abomination IR halftrack!

snip

What non-doc recon unit does have the OKW now that the IR-HT has been...rework?
Every faction have one: M20 for the USF, 222 for the Ostheer, T-70 for the SU, Snipers for SU,Ostheer and UKF, non-doc upgrades on vehicule and infantry for UKF.

You said that if the T-70 (with vets and recon mode) is a reco for the SU, so is the Puma (No vet or anything to make it so) for the OKW, and and I pointed out that's not really the case, you got stuck on the T-70 and I had to rectify what you said about it, I don't "keep bringung up the T-70".

I'm not even suppose to tell you why the flares should remain the same, it's up to you to tell us why it should get nerf, because right now aside from "uncounterable" like more than 70% of commander capabilities there is no argument. You just complain because it is a UNIQUE ABILITY OF ONE COMMANDER of the OKW, and so it must be OP because Ally don't get acces to it, exactly like Axis don't have a single Self-propelled gun. Taking one ability without considering it's place within the whole faction/game is just pointless and that's what this thread is doing.

Ostheer sees and lot of play isn't revelant since there is 2 Axis faction.
OKW seems to be considered the worst faction in 1vs1.
The UTT2 tournament, where those "flares" should be OP and give immediate victory according to this very thread, just showed how much the axis side got destroyed in every match (you can save you some time by just watching the final on Stormless channel).

Woah dude, maybe take a step back and reread my posts before you start accusing me of fanboyism and whatnot. You are overinterpreting what I said heavily to make it easier for you to criticize whatever you claim I have said.

What non-doc recon unit does have the OKW now that the IR-HT has been...rework?
Every faction have one: M20 for the USF, 222 for the Ostheer, T-70 for the SU, Snipers for SU,Ostheer and UKF, non-doc upgrades on vehicule and infantry for UKF.

You said that if the T-70 (with vets and recon mode) is a reco for the SU, so is the Puma (No vet or anything to make it so) for the OKW, and and I pointed out that's not really the case, you got stuck on the T-70 and I had to rectify what you said about it, I don't "keep bringung up the T-70".

The Puma is a recon unit with increased sight range just like the AEC. You even mention the M20 of USF but then say the Puma were not a recon unit? Why? OKW still has the IR HT (although the unit does not appear to be very good, I agree on that), they get veterancy sight on their Volks. If you want you could also count the camo of Luchs and JP4, although I personally find these abilities slightly lacking. Again, Axis gain recon through doctrines if that is what they want to focus on.
To point it out again: No one said that OKW should not have recon or that Spec Ops should not have any recon option at all.

The way you "rectified" me was by saying that you

failed to find a similar use to the Puma but I don't play it often either

I'm not even suppose to tell you why the flares should remain the same, it's up to you to tell us why it should get nerf, because right now aside from "uncounterable" like more than 70% of commander capabilities there is no argument. You just complain because it is a UNIQUE ABILITY OF ONE COMMANDER of the OKW, and so it must be OP because Ally don't get acces to it, exactly like Axis don't have a single Self-propelled gun. Taking one ability without considering it's place within the whole faction/game is just pointless and that's what this thread is doing.

Yes you are. People over the last years have made good points as to why offmap flares are badly designed and do not benefit the mechanics of CoH2.

The offmap flares are uncounterable and don't require any more input than what the community has termed "skill planes" for a good reason. Please provide reason why this assessment is false. Please provide me a list of your 70% of uncounterable commander abilities that require at similar (very small) amount of input, otherwise I'll just mark this down as the exaggeration that it is until proven I am wrong.

I'll skip the rant and name calling and leave it to the last point you try to make here: the "UNIQUE ABILITY OF ONE COMMANDER". Which is first factually untrue because I said multiple times that UKF flares should go as well. And second this argument tells me what? That an ability has to be at least on two different commanders to become OP/badly designed/...? I don't get it. JLI got horribly overbuffed once, you also can find them only on one commander. It was still good that they got nerfed and now found a decent place in the game. We also got a valentine spam once after the unit and commander were reworked. The Brit emplacement doctrine was pure cancer due to their automatrons. This ability only exists on that commander to. Now would you argue all these just unique abilities on a single commander as well?

And the final point:
Two Allied factions get self propelled artillery: UKF and USF. Coincidentally these are the factions that don't have stock rocket artillery. And coincidentally only UKF can combine this with low-input recon, a point which I criticized here. Stop falsely claiming that I criticize the offmap flares because they belong to OKW.

Ostheer sees and lot of play isn't revelant since there is 2 Axis faction.
OKW seems to be considered the worst faction in 1vs1.
The UTT2 tournament, where those "flares" should be OP and give immediate victory according to this very thread, just showed how much the axis side got destroyed in every match (you can save you some time by just watching the final on Stormless channel).

Yes. Which tells us that OKW might have issues. Tournament stats are a completely different topic, so I won't dive into it. But even according to your logic, flares did not fix it. So the problem seems to be outside of flares, arguing that OKW might need different changes. Which is actually a good thing because if a faction needs to rely on a unique ability of a single commander, then the faction's design is flawed by itself, completely independent of the commander choice.

Moving to C.Pan wold mean the ability would butchered since it would become available allot later while require a very expensive in order to be used. It would simply not be worth as commander since a similar ability is available to soviet mortar.

Unless you are suggesting to become a buff to C. Pan and to add a new ability to the commander.

Giving an new ability in the commander would be interesting, but i am not sure on what is fitting in theme with the commander. What remains for certain is that the flares in their current state offer too much potential with no way to counter it(basically what others have said in the last 2 pages) and thus warrants a change.