An Old Schooler's Rant and Observations

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Quite a wall of text, but a good first post nonetheless!

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That was a very solid first post.

I...what first attracted me to COH wasn't the gameplay. It was what I call the "atmosphere". Unlike old RTS where units' voices sound generic, they have emotions in COH...

I remember particularly when playing vCoh how much the humor of some tank commanders, the panic of dying units or the determination of Knights Cross Holder captured an intense atmosphere, really dragging you into the action. Fully agree with you here, was a great step up from other RTS titles.

Also what you said about the dedication of the community is very true. Its core is a bunch of loyal people, same guys, some for over a decade. Real passion here.

Hope to read more from you mate, you have a great take on the game and its heart.

...

Nice first post.

I did see someone make a Blizzard comparison earlier, but it's a laughable one. Blizzard would never constantly redesign their factions and break abilities, nor make so many schoolboy errors with regards to basic localization and syntax. There used to be (andI assume still is) a running joke about CoH2 being designed as an e-sport, but there simply isn't the basis there for any kind of strict high-level competitive play. No serious RTS continuously redesigns factions/civs or core mechanics and expects the tournament crowd to take the game seriously.

Press X to doubt.

Let's ignore that Blizzard still actually develops and has devs working on their RTS titles.

SC2:
-I guess we are gonna forget that each DLC basically reworked each faction by introducing and removing units from their roster. Same with tech upgrades.
-Broodlord infestor meta. Archon toilet deathbball of doom. Bio only. I just had to mention it cause game back then and now are completely different beasts.
-Worker starter from 6 vs 12 made for completely different game.
-They constantly remove, introduce and rework spellcasters.
-2013 map design n meta =/= 2020 map design, mechanics and meta.

WC3:
-Let's remove the whole Reforged fiasco out of the equation and just focus on game mechanics.
-WC3 RoC from what i saw and post expansion are completely different games.
-Note: I'm sure someone like Tightrope could give a deeper and more detailed answer on this subject cause im fairly new (couple of years) following the scene (no idea about W3 RoC)
-From what little i know, Orc was "recently" reworked (moving units from tech structures), Necromancers (spellcaster unit) was reworked, Undead was given a healing item in their shop (they do not had one).
-"Viability" of factions constantly change, same with heroes (both their own faction or neutral tavern ones).
-Some people complain about the removal of Blizzard but the maps with the mechanic removed are still playable. Now think about how limited the type of maps on WC3 are when you can't use half of the settings because in 18 years you couldn't bother in balancing the mercs camps and items they drop.

AoE2:
Let's ignore the pseudo fiasco which was the steam version of AoE2 HD. There's a reason still use Voobly.

-In the same vein as WC3 RE breaking features that were working for vanilla WC3, same can be said for AoE2 DE. At least what i hear from biggest caster. It's still beyond better than what WC3 RE is though.
-While the core gameplay is rigid, it just means that smaller changes have bigger effects. Introduction of Meso civs, African, Slavs, Indian/SE asian, etc.
-https://www.ageofempires.com/support/aoe2/aoe2-issues/


Anything else is not worth comparing. Ex Westwood Grey goo or what is left of the C&C ip, even with the recent remaster. The fathers of the Supreme Commander with Planetary Annihilation. I think for the rest is a list of endless niche RTS. Cossacks, Rise, Empire earth, etc.

Bunch of disrespectful people came out to insult our unpaid volounteer modders that made this game better than it ever was... what the fuck is wrong with people?

Sadly this is the normal order of things. That is why no one that does this stuff is ever around for long.

The really funny part to me is that someone will post a thought about the stupidest unit that no one ever uses and it will get 300 posts of people arguing about it. But some how people think "they" can balance the game and all of of its subtleties all by themselves no problem.

But I can appreciate the initial post. Is the old version better than the new version and why. Its good to talk this stuff out. Maybe try to put some of that flavor in the next patch.

Carry on...

infantry combat is much better than alpha days, and imo in a good spot

TTK however is faster from what i remember too. Team weapons are bad especially for Ost in late games. Arty and amount of sight + mobility of allies units. 60 TD also make vehicles TTK down.

Axis tanks lack pen as armor flipped into allies advantage.

Please remove sight flares or make it shorter.

Axis OP?

This reply made me laugh so much for some reason


I just imagine someone walking into a a room, not really knowing what is being discussed except that it is CoH2 related, makes an educated guess, and just blurts "Axis op?!" in the hopes of joining the conversation, but then everyone turns around and looks really confused because they weren't talking about that.

I do not mean this in a bad way
Thx for making me smile!

..I did see someone make a Blizzard comparison earlier, but it's a laughable one. Blizzard would never constantly redesign their factions and break abilities, nor make so many schoolboy errors with regards to basic localization and syntax. There used to be (andI assume still is) a running joke about CoH2 being designed as an e-sport, but there simply isn't the basis there for any kind of strict high-level competitive play. No serious RTS continuously redesigns factions/civs or core mechanics and expects the tournament crowd to take the game seriously...

This post feels like a typical example of the unfounded critique COH2 is facing again and again, mostly from people who have not an in-depth experience with RTS games in general. You sound like you never really played Starcraft on a competitive level. No offense.

Again, balancing 5 completely different factions has never been achieved in RTS history on that level as COH2 delivers. The list of failed attempts at balancing even 3 factions is endless.

The game is not a competitive title because of its huge RNG part. It was a bargain between historical atmosphere and competitiveness which Relic clearly decided on.

Still, I would say the best PvP RTS games of 2020 in terms of playablitity are SC2, AoE and COH2. I stand to be corrected.

I am pretty sure that OP and other user meant no offense to the volunteers who put their own personal time in effort to improve.

On the other hand some people need to be more respectful to member of the community that joined early and have been away for a while. Many of them have also contributed allot in improving this game.

One has to keep in mind that (with exception of few professional trolls) a very large portion of the community is actually trying to improve the game.

This post feels like a typical example of the unfounded critique COH2 is facing again and again, mostly from people who have not an in-depth experience with RTS games in general. You sound like you never really played Starcraft on a competitive level. No offense.

Again, balancing 5 completely different factions has never been achieved in RTS history on that level as COH2 delivers. The list of failed attempts at balancing even 3 factions is endless.

The game is not a competitive title because of its huge RNG part. It was a bargain between historical atmosphere and competitiveness which Relic clearly decided on.

Still, I would say the best PvP RTS games of 2020 in terms of playablitity are SC2, AoE and COH2. I stand to be corrected.

That's a fair analysis, and no I have never played SC competitively.

I used to be actually pretty ok at COH2. If you look at my stats, I had a few good years (or at least good 2v2 partners). Pretty crazy how easy it was. There was stuff to be exploited for sure, before they turned everything over to the community and now we inch, every patch. closer to mirror matches. Which is also ironic, because I always wanted to see mirrors in competition. Skin the units differently, it feels better I guess? It's really the only solution, because no one on in this community mod team, or Relic (whatever remains of Relic) has the big picture vision to understand asymmetric balance and strategic, vs, by-the-numbers, unit-vs-unit balance. This is an aside, but COH1 will be remembered 50 years from now for getting that. COH2 doesn't. Most other RTSes don't.

Then came the patches, most particularly the patch, I think, in 2016, that increased lethality a lot, making manpower about 5x more valuable than fuel or ammo, whereas before I'd say it was 2-3x more valuable. Before that, I beat Symbiosis (old schoolers will know who that was) in 1v1 once (see my Twitch). This isn't really widely remembered , but that patch turned the game, finally, and irrevocably, in favor of two types of players: 1) people with fast reflexes and 2) ultra-cautious tacticians who are still fast enough with multitasking to react to situations across the map (Luvnest is your hero and guide here).

That's when I really started sucking. It destroyed me, because my age was starting to show. Just don't have that CPM or multitasking. Just couldn't deal with the changes. And it was about this time when even sub-intermediate rank 500 players started chasing retreating units. I think there might have been another patch that encouraged this, by reducing the damage reduction to retreating units? That REALLY started ruining the game for me. Just the lamest fucking gameplay ever, 2v2s turned into a battle where the players were basically just jockeying for position to get retreat wipes after the initial engagement. If you're still a noob and are looking for a winning 2v2 strat, just do this - cap what you can, then go help your mate by flanking from behind. Even top 100 you don't always see this, but it's the easiest way to win a 2v2. Wipe all that stuff, win game. It really is that simple and that stupid a game now.

I guess this is just to say, it was a good time. But the combination of the lack of strategic gameplay plus the total emphasis in the last 3 years on reaction time has meant I just can't play anymore, not seriously. Maybe I'll pop in once in a while to screw around but I know I can't do what I used to, because I'm not at that level really anymore, and the game has definitely made it harder to play at that level. But always remember, the level of competition we've gotten to is ONLY tactical, not strategic. And that's not the fault of the players, that's the fault of the game.

GGs everyone.

Noise of Carpet

Lol

CoH is one of the very VERY few RTS s which dont consist of only APMing better, but als rewards good preparation, ideas, reading the game and thinking.

whine less.

and don't get me started with CoH1. that game only consisted of who could blob snipers better

Lol

CoH is one of the very VERY few RTS s which dont consist of only APMing better, but als rewards good preparation, ideas, reading the game and thinking.

whine less.

and don't get me started with CoH1. that game only consisted of who could blob snipers better

This! This all day long.

I think what I love most about Starcraft is that you can immediately tell whos put time into it and who hasn't based on how they describe it.

Anyway the idea that wanting tooltips not filled with typos or outright broken string connections is being entitled is completely laughable, and I would ask you to name another developer that would leave the game in that state.

Again, balancing 5 completely different factions has never been achieved in RTS history on that level as COH2 delivers. The list of failed attempts at balancing even 3 factions is endless.

This is pretty disingenuous description. A 5 faction game suggests there are 15 matchups to balance, (assuming you include mirrors) but with the Axis / Allied split, its actually only 6, which is a very reasonable number to balance.

Starcraft has 3-6 depending on if you count the Mirror as a matchup, while Warcraft 3 has at 6 matchups if you don't include the mirror, and 10 if you do. Balancing 6 matchups in an already casual RTS isn't an unreasonable goal. (One that is close to being achieved already)

Anyway the idea that wanting tooltips not filled with typos or outright broken string connections is being entitled is completely laughable, and I would ask you to name another developer that would leave the game in that state.

Electronic Arts
Ubisoft
Bethesda
FatShark
GhostShipGaming
Chromatic Games
THQ Nordic
Grimlore Games

List goes on without an end.

Anyway the idea that wanting tooltips not filled with typos or outright broken string connections is being entitled is completely laughable, and I would ask you to name another developer that would leave the game in that state.

I kind of agree with you, but you have to understand the context here. The game was released in 2013. Relic has pretty much abandoned the game. The community stepped up and offered to maintain the game. It's the only reason we still get updates. The game would have stopped being updated a long time ago without this.

And since the community are not the original coders, there will be mistakes, especially in the interactions with the UI and stuff. And it's not always the modders' fault, I don't remember the details but I saw a post describing how a potential patch passes through multiple hands, which increase the risk of problems. I, too, dislike this, but I'd rather have this than the game being completely abandoned.

It's not so much being entitled about wanting typos fixes. It's just that you can't expect magical, perfect work from volounteers who aren't even the original coders. They said they want to fix the typos and missing strings eventually, they just prioritize balance and gameplay issues.

As for naming another developer that would leave the game like this... A simple google search gave me this page: https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/glitch-gaming-bugs

And these are supposed to the paid professionnals, not the volounteers crew this community has.

The abundance of bugs and oversights only completes the picture. This was a real "Wtf happened?" moment for me and Im sure that it will be for many players who decide to return to the game(and then ultimately won't due to its state).

List the bugs so that someone can fix them instead of making general complaints that don't help anyone.

Electronic Arts
Ubisoft
Bethesda
FatShark
GhostShipGaming
Chromatic Games
THQ Nordic
Grimlore Games

List goes on without an end.

I know it's pedantic but Publisher =/= Studios. After the fiasco of the last BF5, we can't really meme the fault towards EA.

It's DICE, or DICE Sweden if you want cause DICE LA were mostly the ones who rescued BF4. Whether you like the genre or not, Apex Legends was a solid game and they had freedom to market and develop it however they like under the wing of EA.

Same with Bioware with Andromeda/Anthem. It's not bad EA fucking things up, is the upper management in charge of the "vision" who constantly fucked up.

I know it's pedantic but Publisher =/= Studios. After the fiasco of the last BF5, we can't really meme the fault towards EA.

It's DICE, or DICE Sweden if you want cause DICE LA were mostly the ones who rescued BF4. Whether you like the genre or not, Apex Legends was a solid game and they had freedom to market and develop it however they like under the wing of EA.
Do you remember that amazing AAA title called Anthem?

Same with Bioware with Andromeda/Anthem. It's not bad EA fucking things up, is the upper management in charge of the "vision" who constantly fucked up.

Upper management doesn't have anything to do with missing text strings or missed mistakes on them and its often publishers who deal with localizations.

Actual quality of the game was not really the topic in question, just messing up on text.

I did see someone make a Blizzard comparison earlier, but it's a laughable one. Blizzard would never constantly redesign their factions and break abilities, nor make so many schoolboy errors with regards to basic localization and syntax. There used to be (andI assume still is) a running joke about CoH2 being designed as an e-sport, but there simply isn't the basis there for any kind of strict high-level competitive play. No serious RTS continuously redesigns factions/civs or core mechanics and expects the tournament crowd to take the game seriously.

Numerous mods are more polished and cohesive than the live game; we can argue about faction design and unit balance, but in terms of a product looking professional and correctly informing the player what's going on or what something does, that is simply a statement of fact.

Blizzard just rapes their players with auction houses, which is fine. It's okay that they shit on all their old wc3 players and released a broken as fuck 'remaster'. And Wow is such a bloated pos they can't manage it anymore - classes that people have played for years are gutted and reshuffled because why not. I took my nose out of Blizzard's ass a long time ago because they're not even remotely the same company.

Sander & Co have, imo, ironed out the worst of the kinks and generally the balance is about as close as I've ever seen in my 14 years of the coh franchise.

This is pretty disingenuous description. A 5 faction game suggests there are 15 matchups to balance, (assuming you include mirrors) but with the Axis / Allied split, its actually only 6, which is a very reasonable number to balance.

Starcraft has 3-6 depending on if you count the Mirror as a matchup, while Warcraft 3 has at 6 matchups if you don't include the mirror, and 10 if you do. Balancing 6 matchups in an already casual RTS isn't an unreasonable goal. (One that is close to being achieved already)

I think you are making an intelligent point. But I dont fully agree with your math. Mirror matches can't be counted since those are never a balance issue - everyone has the same stuff. And the CoH2 matchups are a bit more complicated since it is also a strong 2v2-4v4 title. Balance of those games has to be regarded too. And 5 differents factions which have to work in all different game modes and possible combinations is a challenge.

But before we go into a detailed and very random analysis, how about we agree that CoH2 is just a very well balanced RTS in comparison to the majority of titles out there.