Pioneers after early game

You forget that Pios shred at close range compared to RE.

I think comparing RE's to Pios is kinda unfair.
....

I do not forget anything, simply read all the post.

The only point I made is that RE do not have "bad" accuracy as it was claimed. The only reason I compared RE and pioneers accuracy was because I was asked to.

Pioneers work well in conjunction with MG42 teams in all phases of the game. Both Pioneers and MG Teams come from the same main HQ structure. MG42 Teams suppress and pin infantry while Pioneers get up close to inflict severe damage on pinned squads.

I think that sadly the won't be any easy solution.

The solution is very easy. Make pios cost 180mp to reflect their performance and account for lategame need for repair unit and make it finally on par with Sov engies pricewise. Buffs are not necessary when the price is lower. You could compensate the lower engineer price by making mg42 10manpower more expensive thus killing two birds with one stone (ppl complaining that mg42 is too good could be satisfied to some extend).

The solution is very easy. Make pios cost 180mp to reflect their performance and account for lategame need for repair unit and make it finally on par with Sov engies pricewise. Buffs are not necessary when the price is lower. You could compensate the lower engineer price by making mg42 10manpower more expensive thus killing two birds with one stone (ppl complaining that mg42 is too good could be satisfied to some extend).

Pios out of the gate are much stronger and versatile then CEs.
They are well worth their initial price.

I think comparing RE's to Pios is kinda unfair.

Exactly. But You get it wrong I'm afraid (and with all due respect).

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Pios out of the gate are much stronger and versatile then CEs.
They are well worth their initial price.

I can't agree here. Soviet CEs are one of the best units in game. They are very effective both in combat and as engineers (of course in relation to their price and with possibility to upgrade with flamer, lay mines, etc.)

I'm moving more towards the goal of allowing alternative ways for pios to gain experience without changing their combat performance. I do agree they are doing fine in the early game in combat.

Shared veterancy would be still the easiest and most straightforward solution. I mean there are some other units that performed poorly in combat and thus received shared veterancy as a solution for that. The most notable example of this is the kübelwagen, being a mere fast capturing tool in the early game for a long time. Now, thanks to shared veterancy, it is very possible to get one to vet 5. Same goes for an unupgraded 251 halftrack, most of the times one would put it behind a shotblocker and even in combat it's not that outstanding. But thanks to shared veterancy they usually get to vet 3 without actually taking part in combat.
The same treatment should go for pios and CEs.

I'm moving more towards the goal of allowing alternative ways for pios to gain experience without changing their combat performance. I do agree they are doing fine in the early game in combat.

Shared veterancy would be still the easiest and most straightforward solution.

Yep. This or or mine laying, clearing mines, removing wire xp. Or the mixture of both.

I still feel that lategame performance should also somehow reflect the fact that USF have crews, UKF have anvile ultraengies and self-repair in many commanders, and the fact that Sov engies are cheaper on top of many repair abilities through doctrines (self-repair, cons repair).

I can't agree here. Soviet CEs are one of the best units in game. They are very effective both in combat and as engineers (of course in relation to their price and with possibility to upgrade with flamer, lay mines, etc.)

Pio,s have a certain range wich they stand a very good chance to win. Ce,s do ok at best at longer ranges but thats it. With flamers they are better then pio,s with flamers. But pio,s have more abilities period. There is no disputing this. Pio,s have better sight range also there is no disputing this.

In terms of enginering pio,s are better. In terms of utility pio,s are better, more building more mines bunkers sandbags, healing and extra sight wich benifits all units of ost, and can fight decently in cqb.

And on a side note pio,s benefit from doctrines on top of it all. On top of them already being worth 200mp. And doctrines not meant to balance a faction just cover weaknesses or and a different style of play.

So please stop complaining that pio,s are not worth 200 and ce,s are too cheap. You are the only one who thinks this.

Here's the difference in vet requirements for engineer units:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1644472724

Here's the difference in vet requirements for engineer units:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H5z6szCfhmAAnDprmgwLzc-viZg4HPhKZshNLErvnck/edit#gid=1644472724

Well, that explains why its crazy easy to vet up spios in early game.

Pio,s have a certain range wich they stand a very good chance to win.

...but you must close in. A fragile unit and closing in is a good idea only very early game and possibly later when the unit you approach is suppressed. In other scenarios, they are too fragile to close in. It is very risky after first 3 minutes. CE don't have to close in, which is better for an engineer squad.

Ce,s do ok at best at longer ranges but thats it. With flamers they are better then pio,s with flamers.

that is true

But pio,s have more abilities period. There is no disputing this.

You are wrong here:
1. Tripwireflare is only 10 munitions and kills one model plus gives you vision. It is the best mine to kill one model on a 4 men squad. Only 10 munitions is ridiculously cheap - a very good ability against 4 model squads due to high reinforce cost per model and 25% dps of the affected squad.
2. Regular mines - kill 2 models for 30 munitions, again very deadly to 4men squads and crit damage engine on any vehicle. Can be spammed like crazy. Best mines in game imo.
3. Ability to have a flamer. With this they can hold back squads that are twice more expensive and if combined with merge they don't have to retreat.
4. They can clear mines and get a bonus for the sweeper when repairing.
5. They have demo charges which can basically wipe the whole building with a squad inside. Very deadly if used right.
6. They can't build sandbags but only because cons can do that, which is generally better for the faction. They can't build bunkers but the cost of a bunker (150mp) is just too high to make it a sensible choice. You also have to upgrade it to do more than a sandbag.

Pio,s have better sight range also there is no disputing this.

It shouldn't justify 30mp price difference. Pios don't have tripfalres or demos, for example.

In terms of enginering pio,s are better. In terms of utility pio,s are better, more building more mines bunkers sandbags, healing and extra sight which benefits all units of ost, and can fight decently in cqb.

Remember that healing costs more (I think 15?muni) than the tripwire and has very limited use. If it was an aura it would be comparable to tripwire. The way it is applied is just very limited in use and generally not worth vet 1.

And on a side note pio,s benefit from doctrines on top of it all. On top of them already being worth 200mp. And doctrines not meant to balance a faction just cover weaknesses or and a different style of play.

All factions benefit from doctrines.

So please stop complaining that pio,s are not worth 200 and ce,s are too cheap. You are the only one who thinks this.

I still think that making them 180 would make more sense than buffing them. 170 for a combat engineer would still be less! I explained it earlier. But to be full honest they should have exactly the same price as Soviet Engies. I don't see any point why they should be more expensive. Their price is probably the reason why people feel they need a buff, which in my opinion is not the best approach.

...but you must close in. A fragile unit and closing in is a good idea only very early game and possibly later when the unit you approach is suppressed. In other scenarios, they are too fragile to close in. It is very risky after first 3 minutes. CE don't have to close in, which is better for an engineer squad.

that is true

You are wrong here:
1. Tripwireflare is only 10 munitions and kills one model plus gives you vision. It is the best mine to kill one model on a 4 men squad. Only 10 munitions is ridiculously cheap - a very good ability against 4 model squads due to high reinforce cost per model and 25% dps of the affected squad.
2. Regular mines - kill 2 models for 30 munitions, again very deadly to 4men squads and crit damage engine on any vehicle. Can be spammed like crazy. Best mines in game imo.
3. Ability to have a flamer. With this they can hold back squads that are twice more expensive and if combined with merge they don't have to retreat.
4. They can clear mines and get a bonus for the sweeper when repairing.
5. They have demo charges which can basically wipe the whole building with a squad inside. Very deadly if used right.
6. They can't build sandbags but only because cons can do that, which is generally better for the faction. They can't build bunkers but the cost of a bunker (150mp) is just too high to make it a sensible choice. You also have to upgrade it to do more than a sandbag.

It shouldn't justify 30mp price difference. Pios don't have tripfalres or demos, for example.

Remember that healing costs more (I think 15?muni) than the tripwire and has very limited use. If it was an aura it would be comparable to tripwire. The way it is applied is just very limited in use and generally not worth vet 1.

All factions benefit from doctrines.

I still think that making them 180 would make more sense than buffing them. 170 for a combat engineer would still be less! I explained it earlier. But to be full honest they should have exactly the same price as Soviet Engies. I don't see any point why they should be more expensive. Their price is probably the reason why people feel they need a buff, which in my opinion is not the best approach.

Pio,s build specialised mines. Tellers One hitting all lights and s mines are not capped at 2 models max and cover a large area. Yes they hive sign post but that is to reduce abuse.
A general purpose mine wich does not one hit any vehicle and is capped at 2 models is not very strong compared to that. The demo is nuttered, every inf unit can see it from quite some distance. Just having inf nearby makes it usseles you dont even need a sweeper. Only cheesing makes it usable. Vs buidling satchals on penals are better then demo,s imo.

Pio,s bonus vision costs nothing is not vet locked is always available as long as pio,s are on the field and you dont need to place it.
Trip wire needs vet and be placed costs muni and then triggered offers vision only briefly and might kill a model no garantees. Healing while its not used much gives ost bigger field presence.

Pio,s builď bunkers wich in turn allows for reinforcing or healing or mg position pop cap free and provide some cover, sandbags and wires. Opossed to wires on ce's.......

Pio,s needing close is fine. You can get the drop on units wich they can threaten for real. Ce's cant and need cons to merge or a second ce squad for them to have a chance to do the the same....

Ce's are justly cheaper as they only thing they have on the pio,s or any other engineer for that matter is the synergy they have with the flamer. Every other engineer has multyple things they add on their own. Ce,s are a support unit that needs support....

Its quite the level of mental gymnastics that you have makes pio,s out to be so bad or worse then ce's and need a price reduction.

Healing is situational but being merged into isn't? Your bias is showing.... Healing means that mg42 doesn't have to retreat just like merge means that maxim doesn't, only differently.

Even if you list the utility both CE and pios can do pios come out on top PLUS they can be used as cheap shock infantry at the start of the game. Saying they need to be priced anywhere near CE is just being biased. Down playing vision and healing just reinforces the bias.

Are we really comparing apples to oranges?
X can do x. Why can't Y do x?
What do you mean Y doing y justifies that?

The premise of this thread is pioneer combat potential past early-game.

The question is: "Why?"

Mid-late game, engineers are often either on sweeper duty to screen for avenues of approach for vehicles or are repairing vehicles or building some doctrinal building or making fortifications and mines.

They already have their niche filled out or have a distinct role in a player's army, with combat units doing all the actual fighting. If an engineer unit is being treated like a core combat unit, then their purpose as utilities aren't being completely fulfilled to their fullest.

A munitions investment into a weapon upgrade is less mines to plant, and locks them out of sweepers, which are quintessential to their purpose as a utility unit, both for repair boosts, as well as spot for mines.

You can chuck weapons upgrades onto a engineer unit, but they'll only fulfill specific niches that could frankly be done better by a proper combat unit, and if they are better than a combat unit, then there's a clear investment in resources and veterancy to get them to that level.

In summary, if your engineers are just hanging about, not being used to lay mines or fortifications, the problem isn't because it can't double as a combat unit, but because the player using them isn't using them to their fullest.

Time to pass judgement on this thread.

Literally no idea what's going on in this thread with all the veterancy talk. Just give Pios stock 5th man when all tiers are up and be done with it, the one from german infantry. Pios will then be 100% fine with no changes needed.

Hard no to any weapons upgrade.

Pios out of the gate are much stronger and versatile then CEs.

Merge

I can't agree here. Soviet CEs are one of the best units in game.

Not even close.

I'm moving more towards the goal of allowing alternative ways for pios to gain experience without changing their combat performance.

Nice idea.

As for non-doc 5-man pioniers, I think that would need to be examined closely in detail first, particularly with regard to how much repair speed is increased when combined with the sweeper, maybe having one upgrade lock out the other.

5men alone is pointless, especially since German infantry lets you upgrade on top of it with flamer/sweeper.

You could just build more pioneers.

Incredible logic.

No my argument is that both CE and pios suffer from the same issue but pios already have a powerful boon to help mitigate this.

No, Pioneers have to lay tellers 1-3 times a game, s mines 1-3 times a game, repair, sweep. CEs have to spam the ever living shit out of TM38s and flare mines, the rare demo, sweep and repair. CEs don't have time to fight whatsoever, while Pios have more time thanks to them not being able to spam mines as hard.

Exactly. But You get it wrong I'm afraid (and with all due respect).

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Current vehicle prices for USF seem fair.

The crew is attached to the vehicles. Its not like you get to use both the crew and the tank. Adding the price of the crew with the tank makes no sense if you can't use both at the same time. Similar to the Gren Half Track call in from Ost.

USF have to invest into supporting engineers if they decide to go Pershing which is their 'heavy' but is not really a heavy since the armour isn't much better than a Panther.

Current vehicle prices for USF seem fair.

The crew is attached to the vehicles. Its not like you get to use both the crew and the tank. Adding the price of the crew with the tank makes no sense if you can't use both at the same time. Similar to the Gren Half Track call in from Ost.

USF have to invest into supporting engineers if they decide to go Pershing which is their 'heavy' but is not really a heavy since the armour isn't much better than a Panther.

You are underestimating the value of crews.
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Not even close.

IMO yes, they are one of the best units - because of only 170 manpower. There is no other unit so cheap and with so many abilities and still decent combat potential. Very often they are enough to stop 240manpower grens from advancing.

Pio,s build specialised mines.

true - but it changes nothing. One will prefer universal hidden mines and demo charges. Somebody else will love to use visible minefields and hidden tellers. It does not mean that pios are better because of those mines. The are just different. No price difference is justified because of that.

Tellers One hitting all lights and s mines are not capped at 2 models max and cover a large area. Yes they hive sign post but that is to reduce abuse.

Well, it is the preference of a player but I like universal mines more. And signs are really helpful in making such minefields a munition sink, contrary to tripwire or regular mines. The sign posts mean that any careful player will simply avoid them. You have to be a few times better than your opponent to make them work well or simply be lucky and count on your opponent's not paying attention. You can place a few regular mines next to each other and have similar results as Soviets. Similarly, 50 muni for a teller may be easily lost because of the sweeper. If a teller is spotted you lose more muni than when a regular mine is spotted. Tellers usually give a player more time to spot them as infantry don't trigger them. Also tellers cripple mediums and other heavier vehicles just like regular mines (just more hp damage). The crippled engine is just the same. And it is the crippled engine that will cost you the vehicle most often and regular mines do that just fine. I'm not saying that tellers are worse. They are just different and do not justify the claim that pios are better at mining. I prefer Soviet universal mines and demos simply more than minefields and tellers. Definitely no price difference is justified between the engineers here.

A general purpose mine wich does not one hit any vehicle and is capped at 2 models is not very strong compared to that.

The powers lies in the fact that is can be spammed and placed in many different places, which will stop any advance inflicting losses much more efficiently than 50muni teller or minefields that can be avoided more easily. Once again you should understand that it is really easy to accompany your t70 with a 170mp engineer and sweep. Your opponent will lose 50 munitions easily this way. Soviet universal mines will cripple the engine and you will finish such vehicles easily. There is usually only one t70 on the field so keeping a sweeper close is not a problem. You don't need another sweeper as a)minefields are visible b)tellers won't kill your infantry. When you confront Soviet universal mines you are at risk on any part of the map because mines will kill anything that walks over them and they are not visible. And usually this one pio (200 manpower) with sweeper can't be everywhere, so either you advance only on one side of the map or you risk loses. Soviets don't need to risk that much and can sidecap more easily.

The demo is nuttered, every inf unit can see it from quite some distance. Just having inf nearby makes it usseles you dont even need a sweeper. Only cheesing makes it usable. Vs buidling satchals on penals are better then demo,s imo.

Just place them using rotate camera function behind a building or other sight blocker and watch the fireworks. It is easier to spot ost minefiled than a well placed demo. You are sort of contradicting youself here - a minefiled with signs is good and signs make it not abusive while a small, less visible demo is bad? Minefield is easier to spot than the a demo! U also have much more time to react when you walk into a minefiled. Also the minefield is more expensive and thus more likely to become a muni sink. Demos are cheaper than minefields and can wipe the whole squad, even inside the building. If people can make minefields wipe squads a demo can be used even more easily.

Pio,s bonus vision costs nothing is not vet locked is always available as long as pio,s are on the field and you dont need to place it.

But the sight radius is not that great on its own and shouldn't justify the 30mp price difference. It is not worth 30 extra manpower. It was also introduced only to make mg42 work as its setup and tear down times are very slow and it was vulnerable to flanks too much. UKF mgs just spot for themselves and they don't need pios next to them, for example, which is a bigger advantage. So basically pios have another function - to babysit mgs. IMO it is a disadvantage as they should lose extra sight and this extra sight should probably be given to mg42 arc after setup in a way similar to SU85 focus sight - less side sight and more forward sight. It is again a story similar to sandbags. Instead of givig them to grens (supposedly OP) they were given to pios. Yet, sections and conscripts have them. It is just incredible how someone can make access to sandbags more limited by not giving them to infantry. They give them to engineers instead, and then people say that pios are better. No they are not. It is better to build sandbags with cons while CEs can wire them. A much better combo. Again sandbags don't make pios worth 30mp more. If you feel pios should be more expensive because of sandbags you should advocate making conscripts more expensive than grens.

Trip wire needs vet and be placed costs muni and then triggered offers vision only briefly and might kill a model no garantees. Healing while its not used much gives ost bigger field presence.

Only marginally better presence. When you drop a model you have to retreat anyway. The problem is that merge makes you not waste manpower. Healing costs munitions and you already paid munitions at the base to build a healing structure. So again you sink munitions using it. To make healing work again you need to be a better player and possibly combine it with a halftrack. Merge is simple and much more effective. Flares are basically better than healig, especially vs 4 men squads. Losing 30 manpower (gren model) or more (pzrgren) to 10 muni investment basically means an immediate retreat or taking high risk fighting with 3 men squad. Merge gives you more field presence and it is free and, most importantly, can be used in combat. With healing you have to pay munitions and still possibly retreat, which again makes it a munition sink.

Its quite the level of mental gymnastics that you have makes pio,s out to be so bad or worse then ce's and need a price reduction.

It is not mental gymnastics. It is just trying to make you aware that Soviets at the moment have quite a few cheaper units that actually don't perform worse than more expensive counterparts on the other side. 180 mp pios and 170 manpower engineers would be just better for balance imo (especially if mg42 was made 10mp more expensive at the same time). Alternatively, they could be made cheaper to 170manpower after the last battlephase building is set up to make sure they can be replaced as effectively as soviet engies when wiped.