Pioneers after early game

@ Vipper and Sky:
Please stop with that off topic discussion and take it to PM.

So usf and ukf spending recourses unlocking just the racks to able able to put upgrades at about 80 to 90 muni to put double upgrades on their engineers, dont add up to their cost? Ukf lacking cqc entirely outside sappers and them not being in t0 does not allow them to have good dps at closer ranges?

You are mixing too many things in one post. Ostheer tech requires you to pay just for teching (battlephases) and then build a structure (by pios!) to purchase units. It is basically the same cost to make a long story short. Problems of other armies should be analysed in different threads - not in a pio-past-early-game thread.

Do you not understand that standard tech is exclusively a function of TIMING, unless you have some rank 8000 meta no tech at all build order?

Do you not understand that cost that isn't directly bound to tech is an additional side cost that bloats units value and is divided by the number of units benefiting from the upgrade?

Yes, you have choice when you want to invest, no, linear tech cost is NOT the same thing regarding value, its in the name - side cost aka something additional to regular tech.

I'll get crayons and we'll try again if you still struggle to get it.

I love such arguments - what has it got to do with a simple fact that pios are more expensive than CEs offering nothing better and similarly priced to a much more potent USF and UKF engineers lategame? Hoiw can You not see that?

The crayons bit for U (and Your minions tbh):

1. Sappers - 210 manpower for a 4 or 5 men squad with great close range fighting potential, able to equip all sorts of racks weapons, have snares and get further upgrades through tech. I don't even want to mention all the structures they can build (according to the logic from this thread they should probably cost around 400-500 manpower only because of what they build).

2. Rear echelons - are 200mp and can equip anything they want from racks in two slots, become 5 men in an instant with bazookas. Can becaome the best tank support similar to a much more expensive pzgren squad. Are accompanied by vehicle crews so that they don't need to get their hands dirty with repairs.

3. CEs - I don't even want to repeat how greatly disposable they are and cheap plus can, for example, reliably halt a much more expensive gren squad.

What is there to not understand? Simple facts. Pios have to confront all the above armies. The only reason why it is so difficult to comprehend is that some people just don't really want to balance the game but prefer to keep asking for nerfs for the armies they play agains and buffs for their favourite faction I guess.

Yes it's a different conversation, I just explained why. Balancing mainline infantry is not the same as engineers

And yes it is absolutely reflected in the price. You have unlock costs for their weapon racks, the costs of the weapons themselves, bolster cost... Their better combat potential doesn't just fall out of the sky

1. No, it is not - it is the same logics and You just don't want to admit that.
2. No - the unlocks are very similar to researching battlephases. The costs are there only the factions are not symmetrical and you know it well. Nobody thinks they fall out of the sky unless it is You.

Solution:

1. Make ost pios cheaper 10mp after every researched battlephase so that if a player loses them they will need to sacrifice a bit less manpower rebuing repair units thus making infantry game lost or leaving vehicles unrepaired.
2. Adjust vet requirement so that pios are not the worst in this respect. Some seeping and obstacle clearing exeperience gain would be a good idea for engineers.
3. Alternative: Make mg42 10-20manpower more expensive and pios 30mp cheaper from the start. This could also work as many players believe mg42 is too good for how much you pay for it. this could kill 2 birds with one stone.
4. I feel shared veterancy might be a bit risky and difficult to balance.
5. 5 men squads for ost are a very good idea as balancing them is so much easier. But maybe it is better to stick to 4 men squads because of their uniqueness and toy with pricing instead.

S
1. Make ost pios cheaper 10mp after every researched battlephase so that if a player loses them they will need to sacrifice a bit less manpower rebuing repair units thus making infantry game lost or leaving vehicles unrepaired.

Just reduce the vet requirements. There's nothing wrong with their cost

Ok, i am starting the list by myself.

-DMG reduction for pios (like the one rangers had)
-5 man pio
-shared vet pio
-lower vet pio
-cheaper to reinforce pio
-cheaper squad of pio
-rifle starting + smg upgrade (and flamer maybe) pio
-breakthrough package for pios
-Free medkits
-Faster squad speed


Now combo it as you will with some of the next conditions:

*Default condition (simply buff)
*As soon as T4 is built
*Veterancy
*BP1-2-3 researched

Now every argument is indexed, if i missed one feel free to add it yourself.
Pair up the suggestions and conditions and defend your statement in a orderly fashion.
Feel free to add balance nerf to pios/other squad.

As a general change for ost Id like to see a damage reduction at t4 instead of grens vet one. It would help mitigate the power creep against 4 man squads but I don't think pios need anything else but vet looked at

As a general change for ost Id like to see a damage reduction at t4 instead of grens vet one. It would help mitigate the power creep against 4 man squads but I don't think pios need anything else but vet looked at

I would limit it to the stock inf and not team weapons.
Inf doc 5th man should cancel it out. Would become 5.3 men squads hp wise then. 5th man is already very powerfull. This way less unecpected changes needed to balance it out.

Maybe give them an upgrade with 2 Panzerbüchse 39 (german PTRS/Boys AT) along with either target size reduction/AT-satchel/keeping the possibility to also upgrade mine-sweeper.

Since it is already in the game (for those who did scenerios ect...) it shouldn't be too hard to implement and will partially help against light vehicule (where the Ostheer struggle in 1vs1 if I remember).

Ok, i am starting the list by myself.

-DMG reduction for pios (like the one rangers had)
-5 man pio
-shared vet pio
-lower vet pio
-cheaper to reinforce pio
-cheaper squad of pio
-rifle starting + smg upgrade (and flamer maybe) pio
-breakthrough package for pios
-Free medkits
-Faster squad speed


Now combo it as you will with some of the next conditions:

*Default condition (simply buff)
*As soon as T4 is built
*Veterancy
*BP1-2-3 researched

Now every argument is indexed, if i missed one feel free to add it yourself.
Pair up the suggestions and conditions and defend your statement in a orderly fashion.
Feel free to add balance nerf to pios/other squad.

My vote goes for:

-shared vet pio

Pio is a spotter unit too, they help team weapons with their presence, but don't provide much firepower in this role.
I wonder if it's possible to tie shared veterancy to upgrades. If so, only minesweeper pios would receive shared veterancy. Same would apply to CEs. The repair bonus on sweeper upgrade would be removed then.

Shared vet for pio,s is what they need imo. That syncs well with their spotting range. T4 or prefferably bp3. Then they can vet well when replaced late game.
Ce's as well that can be tied in with the 7th man.

Shared vet for pio,s is what they need imo. That syncs well with their spotting range. T4 or prefferably bp3. Then they can vet well when replaced late game.
Ce's as well that can be tied in with the 7th man.

You can't add shared vet.
Either unit has it from get go or doesn't.

You can't add shared vet.
Either unit has it from get go or doesn't.

Okay thats a bummer. Can they make adjust the amount gained via shared vet?

Okay thats a bummer. Can they make adjust the amount gained via shared vet?

I think they can, I believe units getting a vet from indirect weapons get less then from direct ones, I think there is a patch note about that somewhere.

However my solution I've proposed for both pios and CEs is increasing their own vet req and just giving them shared vet.