Pioneers after early game

You overestimate the value of crews.

Every faction starts with an engineering unit except UKF so you start with one to repair. Unless it dies, you are not paying for a support unit.

Nobody captures with crew because that's a good way to lose your tank. Especially with how buggy crew interactions are with damaged tanks and recrewing. Someone please tell me a way to recrew my damaged tank immediately without switching to repair mode first.

The crew is vulnerable while repairing so many players will likely retreat further back than if engineers were out. In addition, USF is locked out of true heavy vehicles because of their un-crewing perk. They at most will have one crew repairing the tank which takes longer than normal unless you uncrew two vehicles together and micro them to repair together. With engineers, you can have 2 engineers repairing one tank.

Sherman is only 10MP and 10F cheaper than Panzer 4. Panzer 4 has better armour and all purpose ammunition that works well on both tanks and infantry for only 10MP, 10F more, the increased cost is represented in the stats. Different supporting armies behind the tank too. The Sherman radio net works well with other Shermans while Panzer 4 synergizes with Panzer grens. Very hard to compare the two.

You need to stop cherry picking facts. Stein Grenadier made an excellent argument on why Pios do not need a buff. A minor vet decrease perhaps but the same should be made for Royal Engineers as they are both close range support units.

I didn't realize vehicle crews were so bad. Maybe ostheer should be nerfed instead

I don't really know how to respond to this. Soviet mines and tripflares are very cheap - 30 munitions and 10 munitions respectively. Demo is cheaper than a minefield. Do you really think that a visible minefiled with special signs on the edges kills infantry more reliably?

When was the last time you saw anyone using a tripflares? I personally saw it the last time about five years ago, because I personally used it myself, this ability is a ballast, it exists but no one uses it, and I personally would like this 1-veteran ability to be replaced with something more useful.

I would also like to see them get some AT-role with Panzerbüchse as upgrade etc.

We can also split the unit into two when upgraded. Give them a new icon (like Grens 5th men) and lock some abilities.

1. let Pios start/spawn with 2 Luger and 2 K98k (Volks version).
-> Vet2 changes Luger with MP40 assault-gren stats
2. upgrade options:
-> Flamer
-> Mine-sweeper (stackable with Panzerpioneer-convert)
*** -> Unit-convert to Panzerpioneers
45mun Panzerbüchse 2*Panzerbüchse (clone of Boys Anti-tank Rifle)
removes option to build base-buildings, sandbags, wire and doc. structures like 88s.
adds quick repair (fast enginee repair)

adds "Granatbüchsen 39 Schießbecher" ability. Effect like StuG G weak-point (or some vehicle freeze).


Edit:
Give some balanced options verus vehicle-play.
Gives some abilities to improve tactical weak-points.

You overestimate the value of crews.

Nonsense! The fact that you get something for free is very good. I don't feel it is reasonable to neglect such obvious advantage. I find it hard to add anything more here. Crews are not only free but give a plethora of extremely useful abilities: repairing without the need to withdraw, say 200mp, from the front line thus making your line weaker, they can crit repair - which makes them actually better than paid for engineers (crit for crews is OP as hell in my opinion - regular engies should have it), they can cap - you underestimate this greatly as you can easily sidecap AND repair with them at the same time - this gives you another advantage. All the manpower you spend on units can be used to cap while other factions can't cap with vehicles, which limits it greatly compared to USF.

Every faction starts with an engineering unit except UKF so you start with one to repair. Unless it dies, you are not paying for a support unit.

You don't seem to understand. USF engineer unit can just keep capping and supporting frontline troops. Ost engineer must come back to build structures, and later accompany vehicles (rear echelon will continue fighting or will be speeding up repairs or both with bazookas and sweepers). It is a great difference. As long as ost has one vehicle on the field things ar not yet that problematic (but still they are at a disadvantage). The real problems begin when there are more vehicles and to make them operational you will need more engineers to repair as fast as crews together with echelons. That is why a bit cheaper pios on this stage of the game (or at least vet 2 as suggested by other forum members) are so essential and still wouldn't change USF advantage that much. If ost can repair, say, one of their three vehicles with one engineer and USF can repair 2 jacksons and 1 sherman at the same time with 3 crews and an echelon, USF will have a huge advantage in battlefield presence. This mechanics was ok when USF vehicles were much much less armoured and died like flies to ost tanks. After many buffs to USF vehicles crews remained and vehicles got stronger. IMO it is better to leave the crews as it gives flavour to the game and makes factions unique. Yet, repair units of ost (or even OKW) must somehow be buffed so that ost can comfortably play with more than one vehicle at the time. That is why imo pios should be chaper at least after the last battlestage. This is, as I understand, why the whole thread was started.

Nobody captures with crew because that's a good way to lose your tank. Especially with how buggy crew interactions are with damaged tanks and recrewing. Someone please tell me a way to recrew my damaged tank immediately without switching to repair mode first.

There is a pause here as people abused the ability to jump out in the battle and it made your opponent stop shooting at tanks. The fact that the crew starts repairing is actually an advantage as it saves you a lot of micro. Just don't jump out with crew when inside the battle as it was totally OP and is now made less viable. If you get caught repairing, getting back takes no time.

The crew is vulnerable while repairing so many players will likely retreat further back than if engineers were out. In addition, USF is locked out of true heavy vehicles because of their un-crewing perk. They at most will have one crew repairing the tank which takes longer than normal unless you uncrew two vehicles together and micro them to repair together. With engineers, you can have 2 engineers repairing one tank.

You can have 2 crews AND two engineers repairing one tank if you spend 400 manpower on echelons. Nobody does it because they prefer rangers. That is the problem you don't seem to understand. Ost needs to spend 400 manpower on two engineering units to reapair as fast as crews. I'm writing as fast as because those engineers must be brought to those vehicles sometimes from far away while crews are always where they need to be. Engineers are very vulnerable when repairing. Just like crews basically.

Sherman is only 10MP and 10F cheaper than Panzer 4. Panzer 4 has better armour and all purpose ammunition that works well on both tanks and infantry for only 10MP, 10F more, the increased cost is represented in the stats. Different supporting armies behind the tank too. The Sherman radio net works well with other Shermans while Panzer 4 synergizes with Panzer grens. Very hard to compare the two.

Sherman is better overall tank than ost panzer 4. The fact it can self repair and use HE rounds on 4 men units makes it better.

You need to stop cherry picking facts. Stein Grenadier made an excellent argument on why Pios do not need a buff. A minor vet decrease perhaps but the same should be made for Royal Engineers as they are both close range support units.

It is not cherrypicking. Pios need to be able to be replaced with less manpower to compete with USF crews and echelons lategame and ukf 5 men sappers. Either make them somehow as cheap as sov engies or, just like some forum members say, some potential should be added to them lategame. Making them 10% cheaper will not change anything that much but will be a move in the right direction to try to make sure that a better player playing ost will not lose to a much worse player playing USF just because his/her tanks were much less present on the battlefield, or they lost infantry war because they had to invest in weak engineering units while allied players bought frontline potent infantry with the same resources.

When was the last time you saw anyone using a tripflares? I personally saw it the last time about five years ago, because I personally used it myself, this ability is a ballast, it exists but no one uses it, and I personally would like this 1-veteran ability to be replaced with something more useful.

Many good players use it a lot, especially against ostheer. You should try it - it is very potent. Some players know how to make it almost always kill one model. Often they use two if time allows. It is very cheap and is never a mistake. Watch some tournament replays or try yourself. Much better than heal imo in its current form on ost infantry. Especially good against elite 4 men infantry.

You overestimate the value of crews.

Every faction starts with an engineering unit except UKF so you start with one to repair. Unless it dies, you are not paying for a support unit.

Nobody captures with crew because that's a good way to lose your tank. Especially with how buggy crew interactions are with damaged tanks and recrewing. Someone please tell me a way to recrew my damaged tank immediately without switching to repair mode first.

The crew is vulnerable while repairing so many players will likely retreat further back than if engineers were out. In addition, USF is locked out of true heavy vehicles because of their un-crewing perk. They at most will have one crew repairing the tank which takes longer than normal unless you uncrew two vehicles together and micro them to repair together. With engineers, you can have 2 engineers repairing one tank.

Sherman is only 10MP and 10F cheaper than Panzer 4. Panzer 4 has better armour and all purpose ammunition that works well on both tanks and infantry for only 10MP, 10F more, the increased cost is represented in the stats. Different supporting armies behind the tank too. The Sherman radio net works well with other Shermans while Panzer 4 synergizes with Panzer grens. Very hard to compare the two.

You need to stop cherry picking facts. Stein Grenadier made an excellent argument on why Pios do not need a buff. A minor vet decrease perhaps but the same should be made for Royal Engineers as they are both close range support units.

no, crew are very good and carry the faction later in the game

obvs it's vulnerable like all engineers but an advantage they have is the repair critical ability to fix engine damages very quickly, u don't need to retreat further than other eng as they have the same hp and RA , or better at vet 3 which they get to ultra fast

and tell me why is Pershing not a heavy tank ? or do u mean stock ? if so soviet lack a stock heavy tank too, and are still very good late

>only 10mp and 10 fu
it's not a low number it's the fuel for a side grade, and Sherman has an all-purpose munition too, they just have BETTER AI munition too, it's not a downside u know ? btw u forgot the stock smokes shells, the better penetration and most importantly the 0.75 moving accuracy instead of 0.5 which is a lot

no, crew are very good and carry the faction later in the game

obvs it's vulnerable like all engineers but an advantage they have is the repair critical ability to fix engine damages very quickly, u don't need to retreat further than other eng as they have the same hp and RA , or better at vet 3 which they get to ultra fast

and tell me why is Pershing not a heavy tank ? or do u mean stock ? if so soviet lack a stock heavy tank too, and are still very good late

>only 10mp and 10 fu
it's not a low number it's the fuel for a side grade, and Sherman has an all-purpose munition too, they just have BETTER AI munition too, it's not a downside u know ? btw u forgot the stock smokes shells, the better penetration and most importantly the 0.75 moving accuracy instead of 0.5 which is a lot

Repair critical is good but its a vet ability so its not available immediately. Its hard to do in combat too since the animation is very long. Its also very buggy to re-enter a damaged vehicle (theres no dedicated button). I will say its good but it has limitations.

Apples and oranges, you can't compare both tanks in a light box. The original argument was that the Panzer 4 cost more and I said stats are increased for adjusted stats. The tanks are obviously not a 1:1 copy of each other so they cannot be fully compared. You can say Blitz is an ability available to the Sherman or HEAT rounds from the Commander doctrine. Apples and oranges.

You still have to retreat behind lines if you want to safely repair from low hp to full. Its the same amount of distance if not more. Repairing on the front lines is a good way to lose your tank and give your enemy a free tank.

Pershing is not a heavy tank. It's more of a premium medium but cost adjusted as a 'heavy tank'. Stats are similar to the Panther. The increased cost is because the main gun is very good vs infantry.

snip

Not really a panther vs pershing thread. Great information and all but it doesn't seem all that relevant.

Repair critical is good but its a vet ability so its not available immediately. Its hard to do in combat too since the animation is very long. Its also very buggy to re-enter a damaged vehicle (theres no dedicated button). I will say its good but it has limitations.

Apples and oranges, you can't compare both tanks in a light box. The original argument was that the Panzer 4 cost more and I said stats are increased for adjusted stats. The tanks are obviously not a 1:1 copy of each other so they cannot be fully compared. You can say Blitz is an ability available to the Sherman or HEAT rounds from the Commander doctrine. Apples and oranges.

You still have to retreat behind lines if you want to safely repair from low hp to full. Its the same amount of distance if not more. Repairing on the front lines is a good way to lose your tank and give your enemy a free tank.

Pershing is not a heavy tank. It's more of a premium medium but cost adjusted as a 'heavy tank'. Stats are similar to the Panther. The increased cost is because the main gun is very good vs infantry.

u said stats, i pointed out stats, more pen, better accuracy , more speed, so no p4 is not that good in comparison to sherman

yes but same for engiers, what u wrote before was that somehow crew are more vulnerable than engi

pershing is an heavy tank again, compare it to tiger, 30 less armor and 80 less hp for better pen , speed and AI, try to compare their main cannon not the panther

better penetration

Thread is already derailed horribly, but M4 Sherman only really has better near penetration, with worse far penetration, and the armor difference means Panzer IV will always have a favorable penetration ratio in any case. This combined with better ROF and target size will almost always favor the Panzer IV.

Ostheer PzIV
(range 0: 78% vs 77%, range 20: 72% vs 67%, range 40: 69% vs 56%)
after vet 2 (or OKW PzIV ausf J)
(range 0: 78% vs 60%, range 20: 72% vs 51%, range 40: 69% vs 43%)

Thread is already derailed horribly, but M4 Sherman only really has better near penetration, with worse far penetration, and the armor difference means Panzer IV will always have a favorable penetration ratio in any case. This combined with better ROF and target size will almost always favor the Panzer IV.

Ostheer PzIV
(range 0: 78% vs 77%, range 20: 72% vs 67%, range 40: 69% vs 56%)
after vet 2 (or OKW PzIV ausf J)
(range 0: 78% vs 60%, range 20: 72% vs 51%, range 40: 69% vs 43%)

okw p4 cost quite a lot more than sherman tho
we are talking about stock p4 as vet 0

okw p4 cost quite a lot more than sherman tho
we are talking about stock p4 as vet 0

And I am referring to the Ostheer stock P4 at vet 0 in my post whenever I do not explicitly say otherwise...

Panzer IV penetration ratio is always superior to M4A3 Sherman, at all ranges.

And I am referring to the Ostheer stock P4 at vet 0 in my post whenever I do not explicitly say otherwise...

Panzer IV penetration ratio is always superior to M4A3 Sherman, at all ranges.

M4c though, iirc has the same vet as the t34 which is designed for a poor gun. It ends up shooting quite fast and accurately and has radio net instead of cap.

Its a bit of a misfire comparing the M4c against the p4. While it is fighting the p4 its replacing the t34. It's effeciency doesn't care for the p4 but the t34 it's replacing as it shares the same economy.


Compare stock vehicles against one another for balance but doctrinal units should be compared against their stock counterparts in their own faction as that is who they need to be viable in comparison to. If it fills a niche in the fa tion it doesn't matter how it stacks up againt the opposition (as much) as its opening a new avenue for the faction its in.

M4c though, iirc has the same vet as the t34 which is designed for a poor gun. It ends up shooting quite fast and accurately and has radio net instead of cap.

Its a bit of a misfire comparing the M4c against the p4. While it is fighting the p4 its replacing the t34. It's effeciency doesn't care for the p4 but the t34 it's replacing as it shares the same economy.


Compare stock vehicles against one another for balance but doctrinal units should be compared against their stock counterparts in their own faction as that is who they need to be viable in comparison to. If it fills a niche in the fa tion it doesn't matter how it stacks up againt the opposition (as much) as its opening a new avenue for the faction its in.

CTRL-F "M4C": 2 results, both in your post. Conversation between Stug life and Applejack, and my own posts, were about the M4A3, the generalist medium tank of the USF faction.

Likewise, my stats were about the stock USF M4A3, the stock Ostheer PzIV, and the PzIV ausf J (because it incidentally shares the relevant stats with stock Ostheer PzIV at vet 2; both have 234 armor, both have the exact same penetration ratio).

I have no idea why you are bringing up the M4C. It is off topic to an off topic discussion on a thread that has wandered on and off topic already.

CTRL-F "M4C": 2 results, both in your post. Conversation between Stug life and Applejack, and my own posts, were about the M4A3, the generalist medium tank of the USF faction.

Likewise, my stats were about the stock USF M4A3, the stock Ostheer PzIV, and the PzIV ausf J (because it incidentally shares the relevant stats with stock Ostheer PzIV at vet 2; both have 234 armor, both have the exact same penetration ratio).

I have no idea why you are bringing up the M4C. It is off topic to an off topic discussion on a thread that has wandered on and off topic already.

Huh.... Well fuck. Disregard me seems I've had too much.

Huh.... Well fuck. Disregard me seems I've had too much.

I did a ctrl-f search and found that there are now a couple of people talking about the m4c. I'm curious about how it compares to a panther and Pershing

Guys, seriously, open a separate thread about M4C and sheet...
This thread was meant to be simply about pioneer xp gain and now it is getting littered with everything else...

I think either a vet requirement reduction or even a cost reduction (reinforce, purchase or both) could help.

Comparing combat engineers and Pioneers, combat engineers in the late game are cheaper to replace, cheaper to reinforce and can assist engagements at safer ranges. Pioneers offer some spotting utility, but Soviets overall have a more diverse set of STOCK recon options anyway so imo bit of a moot point for the late game.
It should also be noted that soviets have more varied and common doctrinal repair options then ostheer

Basically pioneers just need to be easier to replace in the late game. This can take the form of easier "re-vetting" or cheaper cost.




And just as a side note, I think combat engineers are extremely cost effective, one of the most cost effective infantry units in the game. They are not OP, nor are they super powerful but the combat ability and utility you get for their cost is quite decent.

I think either a vet requirement reduction or even a cost reduction (reinforce, purchase or both) could help.

Comparing combat engineers and Pioneers, combat engineers in the late game are cheaper to replace, cheaper to reinforce and can assist engagements at safer ranges. Pioneers offer some spotting utility, but Soviets overall have a more diverse set of STOCK recon options anyway so imo bit of a moot point for the late game.
It should also be noted that soviets have more varied and common doctrinal repair options then ostheer

Basically pioneers just need to be easier to replace in the late game. This can take the form of easier "re-vetting" or cheaper cost.




And just as a side note, I think combat engineers are extremely cost effective, one of the most cost effective infantry units in the game. They are not OP, nor are they super powerful but the combat ability and utility you get for their cost is quite decent.

I agree mostly with you.
But ce's while cost effective bring less tot the table. That they can fight from safer distances is about the only thing next to cheaper reinforcing.
Pio,s dont need to go forward to fight as much. Only early on as a kinda shock unit. They also build a lot more stuff and can heal next to repair. They stay at safer distances most of the game, they also have acces to more healing and reinforce options. So ce,s being cheaper to build and reinforce is not an issue imo.

Soviet recon while no doubt strong requires vet muni or reduction of speed and all vision in a cone or disabeling guns. They dont come free.
Pio,s vision costs you nothing and every unit near them benefits at no extra cost or micro.

Soviets have good repair abilities doctrinaly for sure. But ost the get out off jail free card in many doctrines. Pzr tactician wich is avaliable for all vehicles and allows ost avoid a lot of damage on their vehicles wich already are tougher then sov counter parts.

I can see exp level reduction working for pio,s or a low passive xp gain from units near them at bp3 or t4.

What if OST T4 building provides vet1 to all squads. Like what wermacht had in CoH1 as vet techs.

Coupled with that, pio vet1 could be changed to +10% dmg reduction. Med kids are not worth it.

Two birds w/ one stone. A worthy T4 buff+Pio late game presence