60 range TD

Why do people only discuss troll posts

When I make a non-troll post nobody replies or discusses but I make a troll post and 3 people reply

Because if you do not respond to false claims, they get repeated again and again until they become a myth.

Like the one claiming that Sherman had a disadvantage because it had HE rounds...

It would be, if tigers didn't existed you know.

Which would be fine if the Jackson also didn't stomp the tits off everything below a tiger as well... On the move... At 60 range. Everyone needs a heavy tank killer, but the Jacky is an everything killer with extreme effeciency while also being mobile enough to be extremely survivable. It's that it's everything you could possibly want all in one very easy to use package.

Are we really at the point where we openly say "Oh the unit is overpowered, but it's alright since it's allied" and aren't even trying to hide it?

Now we're waiting for you to acknowledge that nothing will be done about it, because its intended because of poor alternatives and any further changes could have potentially catastrophic effects.

Wow, why is this never said for the axis TD vs Allied heavies...
I know what you would say at least. Because its a "L2P Issue"

60 range TDs will always and forever be tied to the fortunes of ubiquitous high durability high armor Axis heavies, from Panthers into Tigers and KT/Heavy TD.

M36 should have it's firepower adjusted to counter these units in particular, but be less effective versus medium armor, as the FF is currently balanced.

Stock penetration nerfs for M36 or SU-85 shouldn't even be in the realm of consideration as long as Axis heavies exist as they do now. If we want to nerf Panther HP pool and tone down heavy call-ins or somesuch maybe we can move in that direction (and possibly remove the wind_down/wind_up for the Panther as well), but that is making things more complex than they need to be.

Pretending 60 range TDs would vanish in any case is insanity; they will always be meta as long as they are the only option for countering the heavier axis units that are essentially guaranteed to show up, especially in the heavy tank meta and especially in team games.

Idiots and retards will counter by reading none of my post and claiming the heavy meta is a reaction to TDs, but this doesn't change in any way the fact that said TDs are the only counter to heavy tanks of any sort. Allied medium tanks lack the penetration and effective AT DPS to face anything above a Panzer IV (as it arguably should be): a Panther hard counters allied mediums far more than a SU-85,FF, or even M36 counters Panzer IVs. Tigers and KT are an even bigger problem as they combine this durability and nigh-invulnerability to most stock AT with the ability to wipe infantry and ATG crews, making TDs the only option short of triple ATG spam (virtually impossible in team games due to non-doctrinal Axis rocket artillery.)

Absolute morons with double digit IQ, grade school reading comprehension and broken English will refuse to realize this fact no matter how many times it is restated and so these threads and posts like them will continue until this game finally dies, because Axis mains believe half of the enemy team's popcap should be dedicated to 'combined arms' countering their one heavy shock unit, and anything else is 'lazy'. Instead, despite calls for rebalancing the M36 in particular to make it less oppressive versus Axis mediums, we will continue to hear bitching about these units until they are collectively nerfed into the ground to make room for more braindead heavy tanks play.

Wanna se a fair M36? Dont want to nerf its durability/mobility/pen? Nerf the damage instead.
HEVAP will still deal the same damage but nerf its Mu cost, like the double or so. It now destroys heavis as much as it does now but its not as proficient vs mediums. It can still engage mediums but at a high cost

Wanna se a fair M36? Dont want to nerf its durability/mobility/pen? Nerf the damage instead.
HEVAP will still deal the same damage but nerf its Mu cost. It now destroys heavis as much as it does now but its not as proficient vs mediums

Normally i'd try to be respectful here, since I like you, but this is basically just as stupid as nerfing penetration. All you have to do is nerf the rate of fire and possibly the moving accuracy (but muh faction traits!!!). If this is enough, one could even raise the damage to keep heavy vehicle TTK similar, but not lower medium tank TTK.

Literally the only change needed, but everybody wants the dumbest possible fucking changes.
Turning the M36 into a roving SU-76M with a turret won't stop the Axis main bitching and it won't help versus heavies either. Worst of both worlds.

At the end of the day, Axis mains are going to have to accept that the M36 has to be good at something, and for the sake of balance in this shitty game, it should be countering heavier tanks. It's either that or after a few patches of USF rolling over once Panthers and etc hit the field in team games, something else is going to end up buffed into the sky to fill that role, since M1 ATG with 30 mun a pop isn't a reliable HT counter no matter what anybody thinks, not in 1v1 and certainly not in team games.

As for the M36, as you pointed out, its USF's only source of late-game AT. Why not change this? It's been suggested several times (there are other threads, but I'm linking my own) that giving USF a "medium TD" (for example, a massively adjusted non-doc M10) would fix several problems at once:

I think this would be ideal, but it also might be too late in the games life for that type of change. If they did it though they could potentially make the Jackson 480 HP again and make it a true glass cannon

For the SU85, I'd remove the vet 3 reload and movement speed buffs, then give it 20% more rotation instead. This will make it harder to pull back from over extensions, but make it more difficult to be outflanked by a single unit.

For the jackson I would remove both the vet 2 and 3 reloads, and replace them with +30% acceleration and +20% turret rotation. I would also nerf the Jackson's top speed from 6.5 to 6. This way the jackson will be more responsive to micro and be more difficult to get around its gun but be less able to hunt down panzer 4s and other medium tanks(which it currently does).


Keeping the penetration but nerfing the reload will allow these tank destroyers to still operate in a standoff fashion against heavy tanks, but will be less able to mow down armored enemies so quickly.

Snip

Axis have a considerably harder time fighting heavies than allies do. The Panther has lower AT than either SU 85, Jackson or Firefly. The Jagdpanzer is a joke and the Stug is too cheap to be useful.

The Jagdpanzer is a joke

this is a myth

Jagdpanzer kills pershing faster than FF kills tiger.

Wow, why is this never said for the axis TD vs Allied heavies...
I know what you would say at least. Because its a "L2P Issue"

Probably, because NO ONE sane complains about panthers and super heavies and dealing with them is L2P issue?

this is a myth

Okay, if the JP 4 is so good, simply switch it with the Jackson. It would be a great, much needed buff to USF, and a even more needed nerf to OKW! Great idea!

Probably, because NO ONE sane complains about panthers and super heavies and dealing with them is L2P issue?

The entire thread is full of people complaining about Panthers and super heavies being too hard to kill.

Okay, if the JP 4 is so good, simply switch it with the Jackson. It would be a great, much needed buff to USF, and a even more needed nerf to OKW! Great idea!



The entire thread is full of people complaining about Panthers and super heavies being too hard to kill.

Jp4 is great because it's guaranteed to pen 95% of stock allied armour and has a great rof. There are exactly 2 stock vehicles that the Jp4 can't pen every shot, and both of those are on 1 faction and each are exclusive with the other. Meanwhile, match that up against the axis and there are as many vehicles it would be OK against as it would struggle against. If you are too stupid to realize that "huuuurrr de durr just swap them then!!!" is an absolute retarded thing to say due to asymmetric balance which is extremely prominent in the armour design of factions in surprised you can navigate a forum in the first place.

Jp4 is great because it's guaranteed to pen 95% of stock allied armour and has a great rof. There are exactly 2 stock vehicles that the Jp4 can't pen every shot, and both of those are on 1 faction and each are exclusive with the other. Meanwhile, match that up against the axis and there are as many vehicles it would be OK against as it would struggle against. If you are too stupid to realize that "huuuurrr de durr just swap them then!!!" is an absolute retarded thing to say due to asymmetric balance which is extremely prominent in the armour design of factions in surprised you can navigate a forum in the first place.

How many stock axis vehicles will the Jackson struggle to pen? How many will the SU 85, or the Firefly? And why are we talking about stock vehicles? How often do games get finished without picking a single doctrine? It almost seems like you're purposely diving into semantics in order to

The prominent armour design of the factions is that "If two vehicles cost exactly the same, the allied one is considerably better"


Consider this:

A Tiger and 2 Paks facing an IS 2 and 2 Zis. IS 2 hardcounters both Tiger as well as PaKs. Zis guns hardcounter both Tiger as well as PaKs.

The JP4, a tank destroyer enters the field. And gets countered by the very thing it's supposed to counter. The Panther, a 185 premium tank destroyer enters the field. And gets countered by the very thing it's supposed to counter.

Not to mention that no IS 2 is needed to counter all of those expensive vehicles. A simple T-34 ram+strafe combo is A-OK to counter even the most expensive units in the entire game - at no micro cost and 0 chance of counterplay!


The old adage that was introduced in 2013 of "Doctrinal counters to doctrinal vehicles" only applies to axis. The allies can simply call in a stock unit and counter whatever axis unit they encounter, and usually at a cost advantage that is simply stupefying.

I also find it funny that a (barely) breathing reminder of the necessity of eugenics like you would dare shittalk others ...

But that's none of my business

Normally i'd try to be respectful here, since I like you, but this is basically just as stupid as nerfing penetration. All you have to do is nerf the rate of fire and possibly the moving accuracy (but muh faction traits!!!). If this is enough, one could even raise the damage to keep heavy vehicle TTK similar, but not lower medium tank TTK.

Literally the only change needed, but everybody wants the dumbest possible fucking changes.
Turning the M36 into a roving SU-76M with a turret won't stop the Axis main bitching and it won't help versus heavies either. Worst of both worlds.

I respect the adressment and i really hope you dont take it personal (i mean, talking about the M36).
What i had in mind to spit something like "nerf the M36 Dmg" was based on a consistency logic. Latest patches have reinforced this idea, being the lastest the only exception, but just to favour medium tank play. RoF will displace M36 into a FF like TD, with better mobility, thus breaking the weakness of the FF. The Pen nerf is stupid, we agree perfectly on that, its incosistent. Nerf the range of M36? Bad idea, because it will expose them to fight panthers and Tigers on even ground, when M36 are much less durable.

I dont really care about faction idols, i see the game health overall and its plagued by some easy solutions to hard situations (60 Rng TD) and some easy strategies that are hard to deal with(Artyspam or blobfests). Of course each case has fundamental details that could justify them, but thats offtopic.

To reduce the M36 damage into 120 does not turn it into a SU76. The HVAP skill its still there to crutch some good punches to anything it has in front. Wether it be mediums (at a high economic cost) or heavies (being the ideal target). HVAP extra dmg is the key ability here.
The sub-par damage of jacksons will justify their survival, like panthers cant have 60 range because they are so durable. 120 Dmg is non ideal vs mediums, wich is intended, but USF rooster can deal with mediums reliably now. Only premium mediums could be a problem, but again HVAP saves your day, at a muni cost. (wich is somewhat a USF perk also)

This was my reasoning.

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Probably, because NO ONE sane complains about panthers and super heavies and dealing with them is L2P issue?

Haha typical kat stuff.
It is not a "because L2P" now. Its a because a "sanity ( L2P )" issue now. I expected something better.

I doubt this definition of sanity respects both sides of the games balance equally. But its just me saying.

Please tell me how skillfull a player must be, to deal with 60 range TD vs a player using such said 60 range TD vs Panthers/Tigers/Elephants.

60 range TDs will always and forever be tied to the fortunes of ubiquitous high durability high armor Axis heavies, from Panthers into Tigers and KT/Heavy TD.

M36 should have it's firepower adjusted to counter these units in particular, but be less effective versus medium armor, as the FF is currently balanced.

Stock penetration nerfs for M36 or SU-85 shouldn't even be in the realm of consideration as long as Axis heavies exist as they do now. If we want to nerf Panther HP pool and tone down heavy call-ins or somesuch maybe we can move in that direction (and possibly remove the wind_down/wind_up for the Panther as well), but that is making things more complex than they need to be.

Pretending 60 range TDs would vanish in any case is insanity; they will always be meta as long as they are the only option for countering the heavier axis units that are essentially guaranteed to show up, especially in the heavy tank meta and especially in team games.

Idiots and retards will counter by reading none of my post and claiming the heavy meta is a reaction to TDs, but this doesn't change in any way the fact that said TDs are the only counter to heavy tanks of any sort. Allied medium tanks lack the penetration and effective AT DPS to face anything above a Panzer IV (as it arguably should be): a Panther hard counters allied mediums far more than a SU-85,FF, or even M36 counters Panzer IVs. Tigers and KT are an even bigger problem as they combine this durability and nigh-invulnerability to most stock AT with the ability to wipe infantry and ATG crews, making TDs the only option short of triple ATG spam (virtually impossible in team games due to non-doctrinal Axis rocket artillery.)

Absolute morons with double digit IQ, grade school reading comprehension and broken English will refuse to realize this fact no matter how many times it is restated and so these threads and posts like them will continue until this game finally dies, because Axis mains believe half of the enemy team's popcap should be dedicated to 'combined arms' countering their one heavy shock unit, and anything else is 'lazy'. Instead, despite calls for rebalancing the M36 in particular to make it less oppressive versus Axis mediums, we will continue to hear bitching about these units until they are collectively nerfed into the ground to make room for more braindead heavy tanks play.

idk where to start ... this is so wrong in many ways.

allied should just go easy mode and axsis have to go for mines, paks and Tanks to counter allied heavy ?
this is ur thinking of balance

Yes.
Change
your
gameplay tactics.
Get good my friend.

Any nerf to 60 TD will allow Axis late game tanks to run riot.

You mean like how TD's , allied infantry and weapons teams are running riot right now?

The tank destroyer meta needs to go..

Well, this is going to be a long post...

60 range TDs will always and forever be tied to the fortunes of ubiquitous high durability high armor Axis heavies, from Panthers into Tigers and KT/Heavy TD.

M36 should have it's firepower adjusted to counter these units in particular, but be less effective versus medium armor, as the FF is currently balanced.

Stock penetration nerfs for M36 or SU-85 shouldn't even be in the realm of consideration as long as Axis heavies exist as they do now. If we want to nerf Panther HP pool and tone down heavy call-ins or somesuch maybe we can move in that direction (and possibly remove the wind_down/wind_up for the Panther as well), but that is making things more complex than they need to be.

Pretending 60 range TDs would vanish in any case is insanity; they will always be meta as long as they are the only option for countering the heavier axis units that are essentially guaranteed to show up, especially in the heavy tank meta and especially in team games.

I actually agree with you on this, especially the "M36 counters everything" bit. In general, TDs need to be split into "anti-medium" and "anti-heavy" roles (with the former coming earlier and cheaper than the later): this is currently the case with the SU76/SU85, STUG/Panther, JP4/Panther. However, it's somewhat missing for UKF (???/FF), but it's completely missing for USF - when you unlock the M4A3 (a pretty standard medium), you also unlock the M36, a top-tier, late-game, TD. This doesn't make sense. I'm not sure entirely how to implement it, in terms of tech-tree/unlock placing, but there needs to be an intermediate step between "nothing" and "counter literally everything".

Idiots and retards will counter by reading none of my post and claiming the heavy meta is a reaction to TDs, but this doesn't change in any way the fact that said TDs are the only counter to heavy tanks of any sort. Allied medium tanks lack the penetration and effective AT DPS to face anything above a Panzer IV (as it arguably should be): a Panther hard counters allied mediums far more than a SU-85,FF, or even M36 counters Panzer IVs. Tigers and KT are an even bigger problem as they combine this durability and nigh-invulnerability to most stock AT with the ability to wipe infantry and ATG crews, making TDs the only option short of triple ATG spam (virtually impossible in team games due to non-doctrinal Axis rocket artillery.)

This is where you lost me (and not only because insulting people isn't beneficial to an argument).

The Heavy Meta <-> TD Meta is tied together; one can't exist without the other, so you can't really blame one "side" for starting it.

Heavies are incredibly 'tanky', and yes, the 60-range TDs are needed to counter them. However, because those TDs are so powerful, it means countering them with mediums (or even axis TDs) just isn't viable. Two M36s will drop a P4 to "one shot" territory in the first salvo, while doing it at +15 range, and on the move, forcing the P4 to retreat. The same can be said for the SU85s and really any other axis medium. As a result, Axis is forced to find something that can survive the initial "burst" damage, but still deal with the TDs; and there's only a few choices. Axis can either out-range the TDs with their own "super heavy" TDs (JT/Ele), attempt to survive the initial salvo and then chase (Panthers), or get a generalist that can deal with infantry so their own Schrecks/Paks can deal with the TDs (Tigers).

So axis is left with Ele/JTs, Tigers, and Panthers... which can't be countered by Allied mediums, which means allies are forced to get TDs every game... which means Axis can't field mediums, so they're forced to go with heavies... etc.

Both need to be nerfed, but they need to be nerfed at the same time.

As for rocket arty, that's pretty prevelant on both sides, so it's sort of a moot point. For every PWerfer/Stuka, there's usually a Calliope/Katyusha/Land Mattress. Then there's on-map artillery (LeFH, etc.)../

Absolute morons with double digit IQ, grade school reading comprehension and broken English will refuse to realize this fact no matter how many times it is restated and so these threads and posts like them will continue until this game finally dies, because Axis mains believe half of the enemy team's popcap should be dedicated to 'combined arms' countering their one heavy shock unit, and anything else is 'lazy'. Instead, despite calls for rebalancing the M36 in particular to make it less oppressive versus Axis mediums, we will continue to hear bitching about these units until they are collectively nerfed into the ground to make room for more braindead heavy tanks play.

The thing is, Axis needs to invest half their pop-cap to counter the allied TDs with combined arms. Schrecks could deal with the TDs, but Axis infantry isn't all that resilient, and allied infantry offers a ton of AI power. Non-doc Axis TDs could deal with the TDs, but except for the JP4, they lack the range to do so. Pak40s/Raks could deal with the TDs, but they're crewed weapons, so are destroyed easily by late-game.

As for rebalacing the M36, as well as others TDs, the calls for literally any changes are usually met with a lot of resistance. This thread is a good example.

I think this would be ideal, but it also might be too late in the games life for that type of change. If they did it though they could potentially make the Jackson 480 HP again and make it a true glass cannon

Considering the current preview patch is adding new units to UKF, I think it's still possible. I don't know the exact details on how it should be implemented, or what the "post addition" M36 stats should be, but I do think its a possible change.

Probably, because NO ONE sane complains about panthers and super heavies and dealing with them is L2P issue?

What? Have you seen these threads? Literally every one of them turns into "TDs need to be good to counter panthers/heavies, in fact its Panthers/Heavies that are OP". Both are an issue.

Jp4 is great because it's guaranteed to pen 95% of stock allied armour and has a great rof. There are exactly 2 stock vehicles that the Jp4 can't pen every shot, and both of those are on 1 faction and each are exclusive with the other. Meanwhile, match that up against the axis and there are as many vehicles it would be OK against as it would struggle against. If you are too stupid to realize that "huuuurrr de durr just swap them then!!!" is an absolute retarded thing to say due to asymmetric balance which is extremely prominent in the armour design of factions in surprised you can navigate a forum in the first place.

This is kind of an unfair comparison. If we stick entirely to non-dock vehicles, Ost's only "high armor" vehicles are the Panther and Brumbarr, and for OKW, it's the Panther and KT (which is a joke, anyway); so 3 units in total. Yes, that is more, and they are more prominent, than the Coment and Churchill, but there's more to this than stock units. When we look at call ins that the JP4 falls flat (a large portion of the TD argument is regarding Tigers/Ele/JT/etc.).

• IS-2
  
• ISU-152
  
• KV-1
  
• KV-2
  
• KV-8
  
• Churchill AVRE
  
• Churchill Croc
  
• Pershing
  
• Sherman E8

The JP4 will struggle against all of these, since they all have between 215 and 375 armor, meaning a chance to pen between 79% and 45%. Even a panther, with its 220 far pen (but only 50 range) will struggle with these (except the E8), whereas the M36 will only have problems with a few (slow) call-ins.

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This is surprisingly accurate.