Wehrm GRENS

Maybe 5men squad can be merge with G43，GD have 1 G43 and squad size +1 and more buff，PG have 3 G43 and mark target，Pioneer have 5men squad

Grens are in their best spot now, I don't think any buff to them would keep them balanced. The last explosive damage reduction buff was the dream come true for grens, they are a lot more versatile and pgren are able to hit the field very fast aswell.

They struggle vs other infantry but that's intended, Imo no changes are needed

Grens are fine but G43 is just terrible.

Agree with the fact that 7 man cons are the problem. Grens as much as I hate using them are fine, the 7 man cons are likely a bit too good. The rifle buff to make volks balanced screwed over grens so vs USF, it's better to spam mgs. Still don't like the rifle buff and basically untouched volks. Volks should have gotten a REAL hard nerf. Riflemen were in an excellent spot before the patch vs grens.

They have the exact same DPS but Volks have the advantage of only losing 20% DPS per model drop while Grenadiers lose 25% DPS per model drop.

(Without weapon upgrades)

they actually do have worse DPS at long range

they actually do have worse DPS at long range

Maxrange=

4 Gren K98 = 9.052

5 VG K98 = 9.035

It's virtually the same. The difference of 0.017 is meaningless when you consider that each model has 80 HP.

Maxrange=

4 Gren K98 = 9.052

5 VG K98 = 9.035

It's virtually the same. The difference of 0.017 is meaningless when you consider that each model has 80 HP.

It should be slightly less as well due to damage profile of the Volks rifle. It's the same thing which happened to the IS when they went from 16dmg rifles to 14dmg.

It should be slightly less as well due to damage profile of the Volks rifle. It's the same thing which happened to the IS when they went from 16dmg rifles to 14dmg.

True I stand corrected.

The only thing that bugs me about Grenadiers is the 30mp reinforcement cost for a model. I wonder if it would be a bad thing if we were to cut that to 27 or so.

Other than that Grens are fine regarding firepower, and you gain some more survivability at Vet 3 so that is something to strive for. There's no need to have them copy volksgren durability as they fullfill a different role in a different faction.

The only thing that bugs me about Grenadiers is the 30mp reinforcement cost for a model. I wonder if it would be a bad thing if we were to cut that to 27 or so.

It probably would, because axis factions have more then enough units on reinforcement discount as it is.
240mp squads cost 120mp to fully reinforce.

The only thing that bugs me about Grenadiers is the 30mp reinforcement cost for a model. I wonder if it would be a bad thing if we were to cut that to 27 or so.

Other than that Grens are fine regarding firepower, and you gain some more survivability at Vet 3 so that is something to strive for. There's no need to have them copy volksgren durability as they fullfill a different role in a different faction.

Early on they have the HMG42, midgame they have LMG42, but late game they start to drop off once they're up against 7 men Cons / double BAR riflemen / double Bren Tommies and can't scale any further.

So if they got a reinforcement cost reduction it should be once T4 is teched or something as a small reward. It would certainly help a bit in those long drawn out games.

Grens are a damn good unit. You know why?

They only cost 240 MP

Their MG42 only costs 60 munitions

Their panzerfaust is immediately available and there are no side techs required to unlock any abilities. This unit is one of the best bargains in this whole damn game.

It should be slightly less as well due to damage profile of the Volks rifle. It's the same thing which happened to the IS when they went from 16dmg rifles to 14dmg.

Unless you're referencing some other change to IS, their problem was that the 5 man squads could insta-kill a model on the alpha volley. 16*5 =80

The alpha volley for grens is 4*16=64
For volksgrens it's 5*12=60

Slightly higher for grens, but not absurdly so.

Volks do require 7 shots vs 5, and 1/3 of that 7th shot is overkill.

Arguably this would result in 5% less dps, but this doesn't overcome the volk's benefit of having extra squad members persist through the fight.


Here's the result of 5 long range fights, and 5 short range fights:


The tally is 7:3 in favor of volksgren. Grens only won close range fights IIRC, which I was a little surprised by. Might have something to do with which squad got changed to hostile, but I did alternate.

10 volksgren models remain, 4 grenadier models remain.

In terms of reinforcement costs OST lost 1,080 manpower, and OKW lost 1,000 manpower. This suggests that grens will bleed at least 8% more on top of being a weaker squad that is easier to wipe.

Is the MG42 that much better than sturmpios to make up the difference? I'd say maybe for the first couple minutes of the game when there aren't enough infantry to flank with, but once the opponent has 3-4 infantry squads running around I'd argue otherwise.

Agree.

Exactly! Vet 3 grens supposed to be better late game but not anymore. I dont mind the 7-men cons bonuses, but Grens should also get a RA or Health improvement at either Vet 2 or Vet 3, or get a DPS buff at mid-range.

Exactly! Vet 3 grens supposed to be better late game but not anymore. I dont mind the 7-men cons bonuses, but Grens should also get a RA or Health improvement at either Vet 2 or Vet 3, or get a DPS buff at mid-range.

Supposed to be better then what?
And how are they "supposed" to be better then anything at vet3?
They are cheapest mainline infantry in game with least amount of additional investment.
If resource spent per squad is indicator of how strong unit should be, grens should be THE WEAKEST mainline inf in game.

The only thing that bugs me about Grenadiers is the 30mp reinforcement cost for a model. I wonder if it would be a bad thing if we were to cut that to 27 or so.

Other than that Grens are fine regarding firepower, and you gain some more survivability at Vet 3 so that is something to strive for. There's no need to have them copy volksgren durability as they fullfill a different role in a different faction.

Agreed on that too, 30 mp is too much.

Supposed to be better then what?
And how are they "supposed" to be better then anything at vet3?
They are cheapest mainline infantry in game with least amount of additional investment.
If resource spent per squad is indicator of how strong unit should be, grens should be THE WEAKEST mainline inf in game.

I meant in the early game, according to the time when coh2 was released, a 4-men Gren would lose to a 6-men cons at early game due to cons being more men, but at late game with incresed vet, a vet 3 grens would scale up to a 6-men cons and defeat at mid-long range battle.

I am sure this was the original intention for grens and cons before other factions were released.

snip

Referring to overkill. You "waste" some damage. This is why equal DPS doesn't mean equal performance, even if both units were fighting at same amount of models.

I'm not comparing Grens vs Volks.

I meant in the early game, according to the time when coh2 was released, a 4-men Gren would lose to a 6-men cons at early game due to cons being more men, but at late game with incresed vet, a vet 3 grens would scale up to a 6-men cons and defeat at mid-long range battle.

I am sure this was the original intention for grens and cons before other factions were released.

That train departed too many years ago, the moment WFA was released.
Cons won close range, Grens won long range. Then March deploy grens were made. Then it was reversed at some point.

Scaling was never due to veterancy (they had mirror vet before WFA), it was solely because LMG42 or G43. The sole reason SU kept in check that, was with wiping capable units and abilities. You were forced to reset vet units with mines, demos, precision strike, artillery, ISU, etc. Or you could do like any other else which would either spam maxim or Guards to replace cons lost. Cons were just AT nade units (unless PPSH was OP at that specific time)

Early on they have the HMG42, midgame they have LMG42, but late game they start to drop off once they're up against 7 men Cons / double BAR riflemen / double Bren Tommies and can't scale any further.

So if they got a reinforcement cost reduction it should be once T4 is teched or something as a small reward. It would certainly help a bit in those long drawn out games.

I like the T4 idea, reduce reinforcement cost of grens and prgren.

I like the T4 idea, reduce reinforcement cost of grens and prgren.

Pgrens already get a discount. So no to them. Getting cheaper reinforcing for grens is just copying other faction gimmicks.

Maybe at vet 3 allow a second weapon uograde. Say if g43 in your doc at vet 3 you can get g43 next to your lmg42 or 2 lmg42,s.

Giving them dps fits them better imo.