Are you sure? It's been a couple of weeks since I played COH2 but isn't KV1 locked behind T4 + 145 fuel? JP4 and Stug won't necessarily kill it but will certainly damage it and scare it away.
It is, but still. Single Stug\JP4 isnt really a threat for it, since it cant pen reliably, at least Ost can try geting 2 PaKs.
Still I see the flaw I skipped, and I salute you for correcting me. If they do indeed come at roughly the same time then you could compare them in terms of what they are going up against. Then the KV1 would have a bit more advantage as the Axis player would HAVE to field Pak/raketen to deal with it reliably (or shrecks to scare away).
Thing is, Axis player need more then that to scare it away. This was my point. If you need to scare it away it requare huge resources investments, which allows soviet to snowball insanly good.
In teamgames, that timing would not be of any value or importance, especially in 3v3 and 4v4 (self evident), but I guess in 1v1s KV1 could be a pretty power-spike....... which would return us to that old problem: How to balance 1v1 along with 3v3 and 4v4 (IMHO, who ever gets it right deserves a medal)
Techinally it still the same for 3v3, but more with KV-8, but still its the same in general. I was maining OKW in 3v3 few month ago, and it was a common situation to fight against KV-1\KV-8 at 11-12th minute of the game. And trust me this is insane.
Point is being, 2v2\3v3 allows you to field more\faster but it also apply to KV. If it arrive early in 1v1, it arrives even earlier in 2v2\3v3 just like any other unit. |
I give up trying to reason with you, it's not getting through. One is a doctrinal heavy tank, other is a generalist medium.
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You should not directly compare DPS KV1 vs P4 and vice versa. Saying that P4 is not AT capable because it's not reliable vs a doctrinal heavy tank
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Still, I will say this, using the argument of KV1 firing on P4 and P4 on KV1, and their DPS is low. Completely irrelevant and out of context. Shame on you.
Yeah sounds logical, but there is one small flow in here. KV1 has rufly same timing of PIV, so there is reason to compare them. Because realistacally by the KV1 arrival time, in terms of armor, it will face only 1 PIV\Stug\JP4 and 1 AT gun and neither of them can effectively hold it back.
Its the same way if Tiger would have been awaible when you have your first medium. There is simply nothing on the field that can effectively hold an army having a heavy tank by that time, because even if you invest into double AT guns (one wont cut it) and even inf based AT weaponary, your enemy will snowball and have upper hand in terms of AI overall, economy and field presence.
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And what exactly do you think is the role of damage sponge unit?
What it has to do with JP\Stug penetration? Point is being that your so called "damage sponge" arrives when there is nothing on the field aside AT gun wall, which can reliably deal damage to the damage sponge.
Aside from that, everything is cool.
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There is a post literally 3 posts before yours that proves (with all the stats) that higher ROF does matter, and that it quite easily compensates for the lower penetration.
It does, but not when fighing heavies. Again, lets not sit in vacum, with heavy tank sitting under fire and fighint 1v1.
Reliable penetration, is more importand against hevies, because sooner your damage them, the earliest they will back off to be repaired + reliable penetrations means more reliable and fast vetting for your TD.
Main role of TD is to force tanks back ASAP, not nessesry kill them, but not allow them to stay\push\shoot\soak damage for a long time. ROF of JP\Stug isnt compinsating lack of penetration.
… the StuG and the JP4 have exactly the same penetration.
Yeah, re-checked it in attrib. Probably when I was checking stats, I checked wrong unit. |
Main problem with all the KVs, that they are not CP caped and can be rushed. This is honestly retarded, that both KVs have timings of a first premium medium tank.
I wouldnt mind it having armor and ability to be a fat bastard, but at least with churchill timings.
StuG and JP4 are way worse than Allied TDs versus heavies when this is not really the case, as their higher ROF really does make up for the lack of pen in a prolonged engagement.
Highter ROF means nothing, if a target is not 640HP medium and half of your shots wont penetrate them. If there is prolonged engagement, where heavy tank sits underfire of a TDs and let alone be killed, its just a badplay.
Stug\JP4 are more of a medium tank TDs, which can do very good against them and be cost effective, against heavy tanks they are honestly kinda garbage if you compare them to allied TDs.
Not to mention that technically stug is not even a TD, I belive it has penetration of a premium medium. |
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I believe KV can bounce only at long range, and with a bit of luck at med range. But on the other note, Tiger penetration is worst that one of a Panther not my much but still. If you need heavy AT tank, Tiger isn't really best deal. |
stuka close air can eat a regular 640hp tank in a single pass and you would like the ability to prevent that to be up to RNG because it would be unfair that the player clicked 2 times while there was a hard counter around and stopped it?
At the same time AT Overwatch from soviets can fuck you up even more, without any counter.
I dont see the problem why CAS can eat up mediums, or thundebolt can eat up hevyes if you stay under them or you got unlucky RNG. You always can retreat\move back your units (just as you would do if it was arty based ability). I dont understand your hate towards airbased abilities, honestly, but probably because I have different approach to all the wiping stuff.
it seems like your issue is more in the design of off maps and not specifficly the quad.
I've already stated multiple times, that other AA units while being effective still dont render all plane based abilities useless by mere presence.
AA should by definition make air based abilities ineffective (thats what the AA stands for)
Excactly. Thats what AA do against most airbased abilities. Aside from frag\il2 bombing, because they are too fast and deliver bombs too early, and imo requre tuning. But ones again, right now Quad is not only makes them ineffective, but completly un-usable. Thats is what my bitching about.
but having a hard counter not do its only job to make the 2 click no work abilities be able to eat tanks or pin all your enemies infantry is an absolute no go from me.
You seem to hate wiping with arty\air abilities so much. Thats probably why you love to see Quad having air clear in a seconds and want to see other AAs perform as Quad  |
also the quad itself costs half as much as those 200mu abilities and takes up pop cap, if buying upgrading and positioning is afking and not even controlling idk what clicking twice and having the planes obliterate enemy infantry or armour is. and it remains that the quad is the easiest of all AA platforms to remove from play, especially since by design it reduces the number of mines the enemy is laying.
Well yes, and at the same time its honestly feels kinda unfair to airbased abilities.
Speaking about single strafe leiter I can care less, considering they are cheap. Abilities like fragbombing and IL-2 bombing requre balansing asweel in my opinion, because they drop bombs quite far away from the targer so its usually impossible to deny them.
But abilities like CAS where planes are flying over specific area are easy to deny, considering that other circle base arty abilities, do pretty much the same and just as deadly, but they cant be denied completly.
This is my concern, some of the most powerfull air-strike abilities are un-countarable, while Okish abilities are easily counterable and all of them cost the same.
Its whole another topic really, point being at least other AA units have somesort of a gamble when you face them, you can try and use airbased abilities and maybe they do at least some damage, M5 in its correct state simply pretty much disables them, there is no point of using them if one is around. |
at any rate it sounds more like you have an issue with the mechanic that AA relies, which may do, there was a mod or a discussion a wys back about making it something more realistic, with armour valuse and health on planes instead of just RNG. perhaps that would be a more productive avenue to explore instead of trying to nuke an exclusive hard counter out of the game because it does its job... .
I do, but its not my point.
Here is where problem lies, it feels like a lot of ppl, including you, sees any kind of nerf as a "nuke". Lets say any other AA unit requares around 4-5 seconds of attacking the plane, while Quad requares ~1 second, why it cant be toned down to be ~2-3 seconds? It still would be x2 better then any other AA unit, without being ridiculous. Thats my point, and I thought that was oblivious.
Even if an army has a single AA unit, even if its not the cheapest one and fastest one, this still dosent justify it being broken in its perfomance. And it is broken in AA, there is no point arguing with that.
Nothing in M5 justifies its capacity to solely counter 200+ mini abilities, without them even delivering at least some damage, by staying AFK and not even controlling M5.
It can be strong, it can best but in a sane way. |
Alright. Then put it this way for a second. How much more muni\mp\pop-cap\fuel one must invest to get at least same level of perfomance against air? Sure you might argue that thouse other units, wont be used exculively as AA units, neither Quad can be used only as AA unit.
If as Ost\OKW one spamming thunderbolts, I need at least 2 to 3 deducated AA units to counter this, without taking any damage, if I play as soviet and axis spam Overwatch assault\CAS I need 1 Quad. Feel the difference.
Sure it comes later and has smaller window of usage, but it just as good as any other sametype unit when left to protect flanks or provide inf support. Not to mention that you always can use M5 as mobile reinforcement platform and when too much AT hits the field up it to quad and park it somewhere to competly deny all Air based abilities and eat up free vet.
Your list is good, but still not a single unit in this list can counter Air as quad can do. Even dedicated static AA implacements, have worst perfomance then quad. It doesnt change the fact that 1 AA unit, rufly perform as ~2-3 more expensive AA units in its role. Because ... its not a tank, it doesnt have crew and smoke.
Pretty much bringing absolutely irrelevant unit stats, not considering cost\pop-cap and hell even how much air based abilities opponent army has.
Things like pintle MGs or 222 are not something to rely on, considering Air units dont have HP, meaning that pintle and 222 are just small RNG bonus with a small chance to shot air down, you cant realistically rely on that. |
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